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  1. 24 Feb '10 03:07 / 8 edits
    Position from Sicilian Najdorf, (English attack, spit ding!) white to move



    1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4
    g5 9. Bg3 Bg7 10. h3 Nf6

    it seems that white has a huge lead in development, looking at blacks queen side its
    yet to move. Also those white squares on blacks kingside look a bit iffy, making
    kingside castling impractical. Any thoughts on the position or plans associated with the evaluation
    most appreciated.

    Its from one of my friends games, Ulysses72,
    which ended with a timeout win for black.

    -kind regards Robbie.
  2. 24 Feb '10 03:22
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Position from Sicilian Najdorf, (English attack, spit ding!) white to move

    [fen]rnbqk2r/1p2ppb1/p2p1n1p/6p1/3NP3/2N3BP/PPP2PP1/R2QKB1R w KQkq - 0 11[/fen]

    1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4
    g5 9. Bg3 Bg7 10. h3 Nf6

    it seems that white has a huge lead in development, looking at blacks queen side ...[text shortened]... g impractical. Any thoughts on the position or plans most appreciated

    -kind regards Robbie.
    Plan: Flip the board so that the pieces go astray, thus forcing the game to start anew.
  3. 24 Feb '10 03:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Plan: Flip the board so that the pieces go astray, thus forcing the game to start anew.
    now my friend, let us take up our stance and deeply meditate upon this position, what are its merits and its potential pitfalls What are the subtle delicacies and beauties that only master Macpo may unveil to us if we petition him, failing that well ask one of the illustrious hackers to hack a way through the jungle to a clearing so that we can at least see clearly what is going on
  4. 24 Feb '10 03:40
    Well, i would castle kingside anyways and just be careful about losing that white bishop, then i would develop my pieces as quickly as possible keeping my open c file in mind. Once I had my pieces in the correct places I would march my pawns on an assault against the queenside while at the same time quelling whites attack on the kingside. Typical stuff.
  5. 24 Feb '10 03:45 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Well, i would castle kingside anyways and just be careful about losing that white bishop, then i would develop my pieces as quickly as possible keeping my open c file in mind. Once I had my pieces in the correct places I would march my pawns on an assault against the queenside while at the same time quelling whites attack on the kingside. Typical stuff.
    mmm, it is really quite interesting. the normal move is for white to play 11.Qf3
    (where else can the queen go?) and black follows with Qb6 putting pressure on the
    d4 knight. however, white has had very good results with 11.Bc4 castling kingside
    and using the lead in development to open the position up, check this game out.


    Ivanchuk v Shirov, 2001
  6. 24 Feb '10 06:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    mmm, it is really quite interesting. the normal move is for white to play 11.Qf3
    (where else can the queen go?) and black follows with Qb6 putting pressure on the
    d4 knight. however, white has had very good results with 11.Bc4 castling kingside
    and using the lead in development to open the position up, check this game out.


    Ivanchuk v Shi a6 Qh2 38. Be5 Qa2 39. Ra1 Qc2 40. a7 Qd3+ 41. Kf2 1-0[/pgn]
    it seems to me that 14. ... Qxd1 is better than the move played.
    Black is clearly very far behind in development, getting queens off the board could make this flaw less glaring. after white retakes, black goes up a knight for a pawn. Sure his position is completely and utterly chaotic. Still, chaos is easier to bear when queens are off the board and you're ahead in material.

    Major Edit: sorry guys its really late, obviously black is in check after Nxd6. Still, why not exd6? refutation please.
  7. 24 Feb '10 07:10
    Originally posted by Big Orange Country
    it seems to me that 14. ... Qxd1 is better than the move played.
    Black is clearly very far behind in development, getting queens off the board could make this flaw less glaring. after white retakes, black goes up a knight for a pawn. Sure his position is completely and utterly chaotic. Still, chaos is easier to bear when queens are off the boar ...[text shortened]... s really late, obviously black is in check after Nxd6. Still, why not exd6? refutation please.
    Uhhh...
  8. 24 Feb '10 09:55 / 1 edit
    I know this is a bit impossible since it seems to be whites move in the original diagram Robbie but if black could magically teleport either of his rooks to capture whites knight on c3 I think that black might be winning.
    A sacrifice on c3 is common not only when it endangers the white king but its influence on the centre is often of great importance too.
    However the position is so complicated I think every 3rd move both players will be blundering for the next 80 moves.
  9. 24 Feb '10 10:46
    This variation of the Najdorf has been on and off the hotlist at top level chess. It is back in the spotlight, and most super-GM's play both sides of this. Kasparov was (is) an expert, and it seems that Carlsen has been using Kasparov's expertise as well.

    11.Qf3, 11.Qe2, 11.Be2, 11.Bc4 have all been played, with mixed results, with a slight plus for white.

    It is a very complex position, and you would expect the better player (or the one making fewer mistakes) to come on top, regardless of the colour.
  10. 24 Feb '10 10:51 / 1 edit
    Never mind Ivanchunk and Shimrovover 2001.

    David Tebb had White in the above postion on here in 2003.

    Why not go to the RHP games explorer first and see if someone on
    here has had the postion(s) in question and get them to comment on the game.

    David chose 11.Bc4. I would as well. 11.Qf3 has other ideas but Bc4
    is the move I want to play.

    This position arose.

    David played 16.Rb1.

    I don't care who was on the other side of table I would have 0-0 here
    and that after 5 seconds thought. Black surely cannot take that a1 Rook.



    Here is DT's game.

  11. 24 Feb '10 11:18
    Usually, black doesn't play 11. ... b5 as in DT's game but 11. ... Qb6.

    I agree that white should not be afraid of 16.0-0 Bxa1 (although I don't see a forced win for white if black takes, but white would get the a8-rook in return and a better position after Nxe7). Probably the better answer (than Bxa1) for black would be 16. ... Ra7. As white I would then play 17.Rb1 anyway and follow on with Ba4+ as DT did.
  12. 24 Feb '10 13:49 / 1 edit
    Hi Mephisto.

    I know the DT game and GM's differed but Robbie wanted this postion looked at.



    Which did appear in the DT game.

    DT is an approachable I'm sure he would give you the why's and why not's here.

    His Bc4 was played after the GM game so perhaps back in 2003 Qb6
    was under a theoretical cloud.

    You agree White can 0-0 and let Rook go. So I'm a tempo up in the DT game.
    Cannot see a 100% forced win but what a postion to try and hold OTB.

    16...Ra7. is the suggestion.

    I see a Rook on a7 I see a rook a h8 I see a Queen going to d4.



    So again I leave the sad Rook on a1 and if I do move it will be
    to d1 or e1 NOT b1 what is going to do on b1?
    Chase the Bishop back to where it wants to go.

    17.c3 and this happens.

    I get the draw without all the sweat that David had to go through.
    There is better for White, the position is smoking.

    There you are Robbie - postion evaluated. It's Smoking.




    Edit 1. Sure Black cannot play 5...Qxe7 - Bd6 comes but even after 6...Rxe7
    just looking again. Is Bd6 a boiler - is it worth keeping going?
  13. 24 Feb '10 14:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    I know the DT game and GM's differed but Robbie wanted this postion looked at ...
    which did appear in the DT game.

    ...

    His Bc4 was played after the GM game so perhaps back in 2003 Qb6
    was under a theoretical cloud.

    You agree White can 0-0 and let Rook go. So I'm a tempo up in the DT game.
    Cannot see a 100% forced win but what a postion to ...[text shortened]...
    to d1 or e1 NOT b1 what is going to do on b1?
    Chase the Bishop back to where it wants to go.
    The position Robbie wanted to look at is the position that the GM's I referred to also played. And 11.Bc4 was already played before 2003 (e.g. by Kasparov), so was 11. ... Qb6. It is not DT who deviated from this but his black opponent.

    Your analysis showing a simpler way for white to draw is nice, but doesn't white want to play for more in this position? Aren't you sacrificing a rook as the end rather than the means?

    After 16. 0-0 Ra7, 17.Rb1 does make sense, and does not represent a tempo loss, because it forces black's bishop back to g7, requiring a tempo also. How about
    16.0-0 Ra7 17.Rb1 Bg7 18.Ba4+ Bd7 19.Nxe7! and if 19. ... Qxe7 then 20.Qxb4! with all sorts of threats. For instance 20. ... 0-0 21.Bxb5 winning at least the piece back with a pawn on top?
  14. 24 Feb '10 15:38
    How about 11 h4?

    Black is all bunged up on queenside, and has weak pawns on kingside. h4 will mess up his kingside pawns even more, possible eventually trapping his king in the centre or leaving him in a semi-exposed kingside castle position.
  15. 24 Feb '10 15:55
    After 11.h4, 11. ... g4 takes all the immediate poison out of the position, I feel.