Please help me evaluate this position

Hi Mephisto.

This is good.

First we must clear this up.

Robbie posted this position



and then these words appear.

"Any thoughts on the position or plans associated with the evaluation most appreciated."

So he is asking about the above position and that postion appeared in the DT game.

So the DT game has relevance.

You want to play a move that gives you a Rook on b1 and his Bishop on g7.

You want this postion with you to play.



But 'my way' if you play RD1 he will play Bg7 you get this with you to play.



The is no need to play Rb1. Waste of a tempo.

If he does not play Bg7 right away then bet c3 works and
the d1 Rook will have a big say in things.

Finally it's my Rook sac, I thought of it first, not David Tebb and I am going
to leave the Rook on a1 no matter what happens anyway.

So I'll take the draw. 😏

Edit 1: This diagram is wrong. there is Bishop on b3 not a pawn.
So Rb1 is not as bad as it looks - not as good as Rd1 though ( 😉 )

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Mephisto.

This is good.

First we must clear this up.

Robbie posted this position

[fen]rnbqk2r/1p2ppb1/p2p1n1p/6p1/3NP3/2N3BP/PPP2PP1/R2QKB1R w KQkq - 0 11[/fen]

and then these words appear.

"Any thoughts on the position or plans associated with the evaluation most appreciated."

So he is asking about the [b]above position an oing
to leave the Rook on a1 no matter what happens anyway.

So I'll take the draw. 😏[/b]

"So he is asking about the above position and that postion appeared in the DT game. So the DT game has relevance."

Of course the DT game has relevance to the question (as do the GM games and the 11.h4 suggestion). That's why I also looked and commented on your suggestion to play 16.0-0 instead of David's 16.Rb1.

But my comment about Rb1 being useful is for what happens AFTER 16.0-0 Ra7. In fact I maintain that 17.Rb1 is better than your suggestion, you being happy with a draw, which is what you get with c3, to block the diagonal for the bishop.

You are misrepresenting the issue with your diagrams 'proving' how silly Rb1 may look compared to Rd1. There is NO white pawn on the b-file anymore, making the b-file a very useful file to be on (i.e. no loss of tempo), as one line I showed indicates.

Originally posted by Mephisto2
After 11.h4, 11. ... g4 takes all the immediate poison out of the position, I feel.

it has been brought to my attention, that young Carlsen in a game, thought for more than an hour and played ...g4

OOPS Sorry Mephisto.

My mistake, I have the board in my head and it's a Bishop on b3.

(You keep wanting to give the Bishop check. I don't want to take it off f7. it's stuck on b3.)

But feel Rook better on d1 than b1. It's what I would play.
Black will have to play Bg7 next move.

OK joking aside.

The draw is there for me to take so I have that in my back pocket.
If OTB in a genuine game I'd go there and see what is what as it appears.

But in an OTB game I know me.
That Rook stays on a1 untill he chops it with his only developed piece.
So the Rb1/Rd1 debate would not happen.

Sorry again for posting diagram that gave wrong impression.

I have added an edit to that post.

No problem GP, thanks.

Actually guys, there is much conflict about this position and its merits, even among Grandmasters. First of all, the move 6...Ng4 attacking the bishop on e3, was employed by Kaspers, it was found that after the sequence, 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Bg3 Bg7 10. h3 that life long players of the Najdorf were having terrible success (statistically white scores about 61%, thus you have grandmasters like John Federovich stating that the line is considered bad and life long Najdorf players like Nick De Firmian giving up the line and playing 6...e5 instead. i myself wondered why it was not so good for black and as my chess vision is quite limited, could only see that it was a week kingside and development. Now as i am a noob, it appears to me that the best way to exploit a lead in development and a king in the middle is to open the position, which i thought Ivanchuck did admirably. Thus it was not so much specifics i was interested in , but a general strategy.

This is not the whole story though, for it turns out that the line has seen a revival, due to the efforts of Kasparov, who haunts grandmaster chess through the youthful face of one Magnus Carlsen. You see dear brothers of the royal game, i have learned, from my friend Ulysses, whose game i was following, that its not quite as simple as i had imagined. In the english attack white usually plays f3 and g4, kind of like the Yugoslav in the dragon, however, these sequence of moves by black, chasing the dark squared bishop around put a stop to that, thus whites plan of castling queenside and storming the king with pawns seems no longer valid, thus he needs to come up with a different general strategy. it was to try to ascertain, what this could be, i alluded.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Never mind Ivanchunk and Shimrovover 2001.

David Tebb had White in the above postion on here in 2003.

Why not go to the RHP games explorer first and see if someone on
here has had the postion(s) in question and get them to comment on the game.

David chose 11.Bc4. I would as well. 11.Qf3 has other ideas but Bc4
is the move I want to play.

T ...[text shortened]... e7 27. Rxe7 Rfc8 28. Rbb7 Rf4 29. g3 Rf6 30. Re2 Rfc6 31. Ree7[/pgn]

This game was played 7 years ago and I only have a vague memory of it. 16.0-0 sacrificing the rook is an interesting idea, but I'm pretty sure I never considered it!

What I do remember thinking about is whether it was worthwhile trying to grab Black's rook on a8. So after 16.Rb1 Bg7, I was wondering whether to play 17.Nf6+ Bxf6 18.Qxa8. Then Black can flick in 18..Bc3+ forcing my King to move, so I can no longer castle. After 19.Kf1 he would probably play 19..Qc7 with excellent compensation for the exchange. In fact I think Black would have a big advantage in this line.

I also thought about going for a similar rook grab on move 19, with 19.Nc7+ Qxc7 20.Qxa8+. At least I'm taking the rook with check! This looks much more promising than the previous try. For instance 20..Nb8 21.0-0 a5 (or 21..0-0 22.Rxb4). Again I believe Black has good compensation for the material, but White might be able to get an attack going with f4, trying to open up the Kingside.

In the game I looked at Nc7+ ideas on several moves, but each time I rejected them for what seemed a more promising alternative.

Going back to the diagram position on move 16, visually White appears to have an overwhelming position! I was amazed that Bbarr went in for this line. I might have misplayed the attack somewhere, but perhaps Black's position is more resilient than it looks?

Hi David.

Thanks for showing up.

Tossing the Rook was my first instant choice. I think it's OK.
Black cannot take it but after that....unclear.

It's what I call a suck and see position.
I'll see what they do and I'll cook up something. (...that sucks!).

Horrible to defend OTB. I can see all the ideas but nothing 100%

That's the Najdorf all over, though here I feel Black may have gone too far.
But then again that is the Najdorf as well.

It gives you that feeling then suddenly you have run out of ideas and material.

It reads like you feel the pent up potential Black has and can get away.
I feel it to but it won't stop me from diving in chasing my Mona Lisa.

A strong player once told me I play like I do because I fear the shame
of defeat so can always say "Look I sacced something, I tried."

And Rowson has me down to a tee. "What myth are you feeding in you games?"

Suddenly everyone is a psychiatrist. 🙂

But who cares. I'd take White against anyone in the world in that
position and have fun.

"...but look I sacced something, I tried." 😉

Don't make yourself such a stranger here David.
Your post are always invaluable.

Also soon, due to circumstances, I do my last Corner (5 left) and then
I have to drop out of posting, playing, writing for quite a while.

So who is going to look after my children on here?

They squable amongst themselves when I'm not here and turn on each other.

But while you are here. 🙂

Is this a Black win after the Rooks come off?



No need for analysis - just a quick yes no.

Q: If you have to recommend a chess book for a beginner what would it be?

Q: You. Desert Island. One chess book. What is it?

That will do for now. Cheers,

Geoff

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi David.

Thanks for showing up.

Tossing the Rook was my first instant choice. I think it's OK.
Black cannot take it but after that....unclear.

It's what I call a suck and see position.
I'll see what they do and I'll cook up something. (...that sucks!).

Horrible to defend OTB. I can see all the ideas but nothing 100%

That's the Najdorf ert Island. One chess book. What is it?

That will do for now. Cheers,

Geoff

here is a Rowson game in the very line. Please tell me if i am wrong,
but in very general terms, he opens up the position and uses his lead in
development to force black into a number of serious concessions

Rowson v De Firmian, 2003



Is it not simple and beautiful chess?


.

hey ......robbie in that game you posted on the first page black didnt play accurately obviously black got crushed with that kind of play !!!!!!!!! white is better on the main game of the thread but black can hold !............o and just to add Topalov is a ng4 expert !

Originally posted by dstarr
hey ......robbie in that game you posted on the first page black didnt play accurately obviously black got crushed with that kind of play !!!!!!!!! white is better on the main game of the thread but black can hold !............o and just to add Topalov is a ng4 expert !

hi dstarr, my friend Ulysses has kindly sent me some annotations of some very recent games one of which is Tapolv playing the white side of Sicilian, but i defy anyone, even after reading the annotations, to understand his line of thought. I produce it here for your appraisal.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6. Grischuk goes for Najdorf again! 6.Be3 Ng4. A move that was popularized by Kasparov and now is being ocassionally employed by Magnus Carlsen, 7.Bc1. Not offering a draw, but just showing that Veselin is not ready...to show what he has against the line. 7...Nf6 8.h3 Nc6!? A rare reply, which however was already employed by Grischuk a couple of times before. 9.g4 Qb6 10.Nde2. The new idea. White's knight is usually quite good on e2 in the g3 systems (h3, g4 is very similar to that line). 10...e6 11.Bg2 Be7



12.b3. A creative move, which is pretty unusual for the Najdorf. White develops his bishop on a3, but I have some doubts if that's good. 12.Be3 Seems more logical. However after Black goes 12...Qc7 and it is not clear whether the knight on e2 is better than on b3. Position is very complex of course. (12...Qxb2? loses to 13.a3!) 12...h6. Preparing the g5 idea that secures the e5 square for the knight and kills bishop on g2 forever (as long as you are not playing against Topalov, as you will see). 13.Qd2!? Strange, very strange, but well, it is just a follow-up to the strange 12.b3. 13...g5 14.Ba3 Ne5



15.0-0-0!? 15.Rd1 would win a pawn, but after for example 15...h5 16.f3 Nfd7 17.Bxd6 Bxd6 18.Qxd6 Qxd6 19.Rxd6 Ke7 20.Rd1 b5 Black get's compensation, thanks to his strong knight on e5 and White's stupid bishop. 15...Qxf2 16.Bxd6 Bxd6 17.Qxd6 Nfd7



Now if White is not able to create some concrete threats Black will be better, thanks to his strong knight on e5 and the dead guy on g2. 18.Nd4! A very strong move, but Grischuk has seen it too... The tricky looking 18.Rhf1 makes little sense, since Black can simply play 18...Qc5 (and even if 18...Qxg2 19.Nd4 Qg3! White's compensation after let's say Nxe6 or first Kb1 is probably only enough for draw.) 18...Qf6! 18...Qxg2? is losing too 19.Nxe6! fxe6 20.Qxe6+ Kd8 21.Qxe5 and you don't even have to be Topalov to mate the black king here. 19.Qa3!? A move that ordinary chess player would make, 19.Na4 cannot so bad. The idea is to answer 19...Qe7 with 20.Qc7! In this case however, then knight on a4 would be a bit oddly placed.; 19.Rhf1 however would be too simple 19...Qe7 20.Qc7 Qc5! and in ending, it is White who will have trouble. 19...Qe7



20.Qb2!! Genius idea. White has finally fullfiled the purpose of his extravagant b3 in the opening and is hoping that the queen will make a home run to g7 one day. 20...0-0 21.Nf5!? Topalov has probably had enough of his bishop on g2 and now he wants to give it a new life by giving up his knight. I am not sure some conservative methods could work in this position, although move like 21.Nce2!? with the idea Ng3-f5 made sense. However White is taking some strategic risk with this plan, since if there is no mate on g7, he will be lost. 21...exf5 22.Nd5 Qc5 23.exf5



27...Kg7. 27...Kh7! Was just winning according to the computer. The point is that after 28.Rh2 Qg3 29.Rdh1 fails to 29...Nxg4 when the king is not on g7! Well, but to the human eye it is not obvious why Kh7 is better than Kg7. 28.Rh2 f6? 28...Qg3 here would make no sense since after 29.Rdh1 the knight on e5 is pinned.; 28...Re8 would be better 29.Nd5 Rf6!? and Black is holding on the dark squares, although White still has some compensation after let's say Qc1!?. 29.g5. 29.Qc1! gave White an advantage. I have no clue what Topalov missed here. Maybe he overlooked some idea like 32.Bh3!? 29...Nxg4 30.Nxc8 Nc5 31.Rd2 Qxf5 32.Bh3! The whole point! 32...Qxc8 33.Bxg4 and White is better, thanks to his strong bishop and Black's weak king. 29...fxg5 30.Nxc8 Raf6 31.Ne7



Now Black is winning again, but Grischuk was already short of time.. 31...R8f7. The logical move was also the good one: 31...Qg3! 32.Rdh1 Ng4 with a winning advantage. 32.Nd5 Nf3. Again a mistake, but the position was too complicated for a time trouble. 32...Ng4 was still better for Black.] 33.Bxf3! Qxh2 34.Nxf6 [34.Qd4! with the idea Re1 would be stronger. 34...Nxf6 35.a4 Qf4 36.Bd5 Rd7 37.Re1 Qxf5 38.Bc4. Black is better, but White has some threats, and there are still two moves before the time control. 38...Qf2. 38...Qf4 keeping an eye on e5 was better. Black would then have a clear advantage (a pawn is a pawn). 39.Qe5 Qd4



40.Qf5! Now Black has to defend against Bd3. 40...Qg4 41.Qxa5. The time control has passed, and White is slightly better thanks to his bishop against Black's knight. As we learnt in primary school: if there are pawns are on both flanks, than the bishop is better. 41...Rd1+ 42.Rxd1 Qxd1+ 43.Kb2



43...Qd6. From here on, Grischuk slowly gets outplayed

Originally posted by greenpawn34

But while you are here. 🙂

Is this a Black win after the Rooks come off?

[fen]8/p4pk1/1p2p1pp/8/8/8/PP3PPP/3rRK2 b - - 0 34[/fen]

No need for analysis - just a quick yes no.

Q: If you have to recommend a chess book for a beginner what would it be?

Q: You. Desert Island. One chess book. What is it?

That will do for now. Cheers,

Geoff

Hi Geoff. To answer your questions:

Q: Is this a Black win after the Rooks come off?



Yes, Black is winning the pawn ending. He just needs to bring his King forward as quickly as possible and then start pushing his 'e' and 'f'' pawns in order to create a passed pawn in the centre.


Q: If you have to recommend a chess book for a beginner what would it be?

I'm not the right person to ask. I've never read any beginners books, so can't recommend any. The first chess books I read were classics, such as Fischer's '60 Memorable Games', Alekhine's best games collections, Capablancas's Best Games, Reti's 'Masters of the Chess Board'... I think I had already been playing for a year or so before I read them.


Q: You. Desert Island. One chess book. What is it?

Does it have to be just one book? I'd like take all 5 volumes of Kasparov's 'My Great Predecessors' books and make a raft from them.

Hi DT

Thanks for replying.

I thought 90% ending was won. I've lost it often enough it's just
the complete lack of other posters to confirm this had me worried.

My endgame play is really based on one principle. Avoid it all costs.

I always ask that question to good OTB players a lot like yourself
cannot come up with one.

Can think of a 100 other chess much worse books you could rope together
to make a raft.

Have you seen this yet?

I say 'Yet' because it's bound to be appearing in newspaper coulmn's
all the over the country and in CHESS and BCM.

Robbie I'm hi-jacking your thread to show a proper game of chess.
None of this 25 moves of Najdorf theory nonsense.
You won't mind at all - you will enjoy this.

J.Rowson - S.Williams. 4NCL. 21st Feb 2010

A Battle Fantastic

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi DT

Thanks for replying.

I thought 90% ending was won. I've lost it often enough it's just
the complete lack of other posters to confirm this had me worried.

My endgame play is really based on one principle. Avoid it all costs.

I always ask that question to good OTB players a lot like yourself
cannot come up with one.

Can think of a 1 ...[text shortened]... Rec1 Be3 49. Re1 Bd4 50.Ra3 Bc5 51. Raa1 Bg4+ 52. Kg2 Rf2+[/pgn]

you can hack away till your hearts content my friend, but i hope you realise that you provided the same inexplicable moves as Topalov, with his b3 Najdorf (spit ding). I shall post some very interesting analysis from my friend Ulysses, for he actually knows what he is doing! It makes reference to you and Dave Tebb. 🙂

Hi Robbie

By pure coincidence I'm reading HMS Ulysses by Alastair Maclean.
Super book by way.

Re posting.

If the analyse is long, then it's wrong, and I won't play it out.

Show me what has been played OTB not some random moves from the brain
of someone who feels the need to hide behind the name of some dead Greek. 🙂