Please help me evaluate this position

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Robbie

By pure coincidence I'm reading HMS Ulysses by Alastair Maclean.
Super book by way.

Re posting.

If the analyse is long, then it's wrong, and I won't play it out.

Show me what has been played OTB not some random moves from the brain
of someone who feels the need to hide behind the name of some dead Greek. 🙂

the only part that concerns you is that no dragon player would ever give up his dragon bishop for a mere rook!

Good stuff with the topalov-grishuk game robbie. Very creative ideas on that line by topalov !!!!!!!

Originally posted by dstarr
Good stuff with the topalov-grishuk game robbie. Very creative ideas on that line by topalov !!!!!!!

i defy anyone to understand it? bc1? b3? Ne2? Qd2? what was that all about?

My dear Robbie,
When two of the chess monsters of RHP have spoken the cunning mariner must remain silent in order to survive the pass between Scylla and Charybdis. But I will try to elaborate my thoughts and then I’ll leave myself open to GP’s beating.
I think that the issue of the line is not the Ng4 move but the bishop chase with h6 and g5 which makes black’s kingside wide open. If you remember a similar setup was found in the infamous Sicilian Vespers (for which we have exchanged some e-mails). The Vespers are encountered in the main line like this:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 h6 9.Bh4 g5 reaching a position like this:

I will not remind you the story but as you can see the black bishop is already deployed in e7 and white has already played f4. In order to produce some delight for GP’s eyes I am giving the Keres vs Najdorf game which (along with the Spassky vs Pilnik and Geller vs Panno) signaled the death of the line until Bobby Fischer revived it with a new idea 3 years later.
Keres,P - Najdorf,M
Gothenburg Interzonal Gothenburg 1955

Back to our story now.
In the English Attack White plays 6. Be3 and after Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Bg3 Bg7 10. h3 Nf6 we are reaching the same setup without a white pawn in f4 and black having a dragon like setup.

In fact when I first read about this line I recall seeing the phrase “this line should be called the dragorf”. Now it is difficult for white to deploy a Yugoslav like kind of attack and take advantage of the Fischer approach (White plays h4,h5 sac sac mate). And so we are entering a different kind of game. But black has to be careful to check where white is going to castle.
Queenside castle means that we are going for a dragon approach plus having the benefit of stopping the white kingside pawns march plans (see the Leko – Carlsen game).
With great respect to Greenpawn’s comments and with huge admiration for DT’s game (I humbly bow to your Excellencies sirs) I would say that a true Sicilian dragon player would never exchange the g7 – bishop for the rook in a1. Also I have to stress that the answer to 11.Bc4 is Qb6 and not the tempting but inaccurate b5. After Qb6 I have to say that white is somehow obliged to move at some point the troublesome d4 – Knight although O-O and Bb3 have been played with success for white. So the position that rises after
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bg5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Bg3 Bg7 10.h3 Nf6 11. Bc4 Qb6

to my humble opinion is pretty much equal.
Most probably the reference to Kasparov vs Polgar (Wijk aan Zee 2000) signaled again the death of the project. Let us not forget though that it was a line devised by Kaspy and as Karpov says (or should I say Evgeny Gik?) “Super GMs have their own questions on key matters of theory”. So he revives the line under the disguise of Magnus Carlsen with a different approach this time.
The fishy thing is that the non deployed bishop in c8 is doing a good job eyeing the juicy h3 pawn and supporting a possible g4 advance (remember the Leko – Carlsen game) which would be a great pain in the …. (Sorry I just sneezed) for white especially if he has castled Kingside.
Of course nothing comes without concessions and they are pretty obvious. There is no such thing as the perfect opening. You may call some of them sound or not sound but I am telling you once more that the choice of opening – defense is just a matter of personal taste. I am just picking up this line because I do not want to enter in a huge theoretical Najdorf struggle and thus disorient my opponent. Against a much better player I don’t think it would stand any chance. But as Polgar may have asked my dear Robbie. Isn’t that the case with any opening line against a stronger player?
Here is the Leko – Carlsen game
Tal Memorial Moscow

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Robbie

By pure coincidence I'm reading HMS Ulysses by Alastair Maclean.
Super book by way.

Re posting.

If the analyse is long, then it's wrong, and I won't play it out.

Show me what has been played OTB not some random moves from the brain
of someone who feels the need to hide behind the name of some dead Greek. 🙂

I am not hiding my dear GP. I am just having problems to post because I do not have a laptop at the time being.
I do have a name. My name is "Nobody" 😉

But if you think that a dead Greek (or maybe imaginary) is not much of an alias I do declare that I will create a second account after an alive Greek named G. Samaras.
I am pretty sure that every score of mine will receive a huge applause by you. especially against User 3254😛
I hope FL will come back to point the second account and to offer us his invaluable comments.
And I do hope that the mods will understand the humor in this and not make the same mistakes.

Originally posted by Ulysses72
My dear Robbie,
When two of the chess monsters of RHP have spoken the cunning mariner must remain silent in order to survive the pass between Scylla and Charybdis. But I will try to elaborate my thoughts and then I’ll leave myself open to GP’s beating.
I think that the issue of the line is not the Ng4 move but the bishop chase with h6 and g5 which make ...[text shortened]... 4 52.Ra3 f4 53.Ra8 Rd2 54.Ra7 Kg3 55.Rg7+ Kf3 56.Ra7 Rd1+ 57.Kh2 Ke2 58.Kh3 f3 59.Ra2+ Rd2[/pgn]

its a beautiful post Ulysses, it really is! If anyone is interested in the annotations of the Leko v Carlsen game, please let me know and i shall post them.

Kind regards to you Ulysses and dont mind greenpawn hes just sore cause his team, Hibernian really suck at the moment.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its a beautiful post Ulysses, it really is! If anyone is interested in the annotations of the Leko v Carlsen game, please let me know and i shall post them.

Kind regards to you Ulysses and dont mind greenpawn hes just sore cause his team, Hibernian really suck at the moment.

heinz is blogging that he is a Celtic fan.
My bad GP. I am doomed now.
What can I do to compensate?

Alas my friend, you ran the risk of sneaking out at the midnight hour, scurrying away like a fox at twilight to post your analysis from some secluded internet cafe, and the forum was unworthy! Only to be captured on your return, by her indoors and trying to explain yourself to her who has nursed her wrath and who gathers her brows like storm! Never the less it was a noble and virtuous mission!

Also you are very correct in your appraisal of Topalov, world championship is coming up soon and he is laying nothing out on the open lest Anands antennae pick something up. Thanks for wonderful thread, robbie.

Originally posted by Ulysses72
heinz is blogging that he is a Celtic fan.
My bad GP. I am doomed now.
What can I do to compensate?

from vespers and ghosties
an lang leggedy beasties
and things that go bump in the night...
😵




I 'm thick as a brick an too ole for vespers, I would forget the words😵

Hi

I totally despair about posts on openings. Any opening.

Usually I ignore them and let them have their fun.

This one I jumped in because it's sharp enough to be interesting and there
are quick kills and tactcial shots a plenty and I spotted an intersting Rook sac.

I wanted to keep the discussion at our level and mentioned the Tebb game
played on here.

"Never mind Ivanchunk and Shimrovover 2001.
David Tebb had White in the above postion on here in 2003."



DT kindly appeared.

"Going back to the diagram position on move 16, visually White appears to have
an overwhelming position! I was amazed that Bbarr went in for this line. I might
have misplayed the attack somewhere, but perhaps Black's position is more resilient than it looks?"

Really this is all you need.

Mephisto and I tried to keep the game within the opening looking for the
quick kill, the tactical winning trick.

That is what you look for in the opening.
You want to reach a middle game that suits you and be ready to jump on
the tactical wagon should the need arise.

I evaluated the postion. 'Tactically it is smoking.'

Me and Mepohisto tried to keep it at level we would all understand.
We gave an assesment. Not games.

But No. We must show GM games.

So Robbie posted a complicated game ending with this postion.



adding "43...Qd6. From here on, Grischuk slowly gets outplayed."

I think I'd like to see Grischuk getting slowly outplayed cos I'm sure
I could not slowly outplay a GM from that position.

Suddenly all the regular chess forum posters are nodding in totally agreement.

"Yes, Grischuk will get slowly outplayed from here alright."

Meanwhile in their own games they are dropping more pieces than
an apple tree in August on a windy day.

So this postion is evaluated.



By looking at few Grandmaster games. Not studying, looking at.

and should we ever reach...



....then it will be a doddle to slowly outplay a GM.

Also in this game which was meant to help us evaluate this this position



Robbie states:

"I defy anyone to understand it? bc1? b3? Ne2? Qd2? what was that all about?"

Admitting that this game is on another sphere. So why show it?

Enter the dead Greek.

Some sense at last.
He makes some good comments about openings in general.
Post a game from the Gothenburgh Triangle. OK.

(I have read Spassky, Geller and Keres version of what happened in each
of their own autoboigraphies and recently I read Najdorf's version.)

Then talking about the position in question adds:

"to my humble opinion is pretty much equal. "

It should have ended there.

But no. He waffled on and then posted. Leko – Carlsen, Tal Memorial Moscow.

Look at the final position. move 59.



Now what did the evaluation of this position.



Have to do with that game?

The opening was a long time ago. There has been a middle game and an ending.

There has been a lot of decisions made and plans rejected here and none
had anything to do with the first 15 moves.

This appeared.



White played 48.Be7.

Why did he swap Bishop's? I would have kept it on to give itself up
for the f-apwn as Black has the wrong Bishop for the h-pawn pawn.

Maybe I'm right, perhaps I'm hopelessly wrong and the win is a walk in
the park with the Bishop's on.

But it was moments like this in the game that decided it. Not the opening.

So why show this game To evaluate this position?



Talk about running before we can walk. Most of us are still in the womb.

Enter The Beetle

And he appears to more drunk than I was last night.

So after all that this position is still waiting.



Here is a game played by another couple of lads on here from this opening.

It's not a GM game, but it's a game we can understand.

So I'm sorry to soil the thread with an under 1500 game but

mosquitorespect (1482) v Chaswray (1340) have show us the way.

There is more chance of us reaching and understanding their postions
than there is of us ever understanding Carlsen - Leko.

(it's a pity that hfrcan jouwe (1522) v Ulysses72 (2158) timed out after
13 moves else we could have seen that. Perhaps Roobie and U can play 2 set
games from that position and show what happened between player like us.)

The opening, as in the GM games mentioned had nothing what so ever
to do with what followed.

It's all going to happen in middle game.

I'm not a fan of Black's 22...e5 and I bet the g7 Bishop is not either.

Then came the blunders.

Between moves 29-33 Black managed to lose 3 pawns. (I think that beats my record) 🙂

He fights and you can see him trying 2 move tricks to win at least one back.
But it's looking very grim. Eventually he walks into a Bishop fork 1-0.

And that I'm afraid sums up our games. Most end with that middle game note.

Eventually he walks into a 'add one move tactic here' 1-0.

And until we progress beyong that stage then looking at the games of
these GM guys is not going to help one bit.

The quicker you admit to yourself's the better you will become.

(I have a right stinking hangover.)

Game 1891607

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Position from Sicilian Najdorf, (English attack, spit ding!) white to move

[fen]rnbqk2r/1p2ppb1/p2p1n1p/6p1/3NP3/2N3BP/PPP2PP1/R2QKB1R w KQkq - 0 11[/fen]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4
g5 9. Bg3 Bg7 10. h3 Nf6

it seems that white has a huge lead in development, looking at blacks queen side ...[text shortened]... y friends games, Ulysses72,
which ended with a timeout win for black.

-kind regards Robbie.

So much bickering so little analysis... =)


Material is even, neither king is immediately threatened.
White appears to have space centrally while black has space on the Kingside.
White is slightly more developed and has the move.
White is almost ready to castle queenside.

Weaknesses/Pressing questions:
Can black castle kingside? I would be hesitant to due to the weak h6, g5 structure unless white also castles that way.

Where will the light square bishops go? d7 or b7 are the only logical options for black and for white I would like to play Bc4 but that invites b5-b4 threatening the e pawn (or black can play less aggressively with just b5 and Bb7 but this weakens th ec8-h3 diagonal so white plays Nf5!) so Be2 will probably have to suffice unless we can change something. The tactic of Qd5 with double attacks on f7 and a8 suggests itself but whites own pieces get in the way.

Can white break into that black center? d5 suggests itself since exd, Bxd5 opposes blacks excellent g7 bishop but visions of Qa5 or poison-pawn like Qb6 moves provide too many problems to deal with, especially when the king isn't safe.

What will white do when black plays Nc6, is there any reason to expect Nbd7? I honestly don't know... I usually try to maintain a piece on d4 in a Sicilian but I'm not sure how long that will happen. I get the feeling white wants to castle long and ...Nc6, NxN, bxc looks to open a juicy b-file for a black attack.

Is g4 actually a threat? -- at this time I don't think so since white has no targets over there (it could be used to redeploy the knight.) and he can castle long meaning that something like Qd2, g5, hxg (making the rook useful), Nxg, 0-0-0, Ne5 is clearly premature since white now has f4. Mix in some of the b5-b4, Nxe4 ideas first and we might have something. If white wants to he can also play f3 which effectively shuts down the push while also allowing Bf2 as a decent redeployment for that bishop.

Is this a najdorf at all? I don't think black can get away with e5 as it locks in his bishop and white can more easily redeploy his blocked bishop.


My Answers? I don't have any but as white I would play the safe Be2 which temporarily shuts down g5, allows castling short (if desired) and doesn't allow b5 to be played with tempo.


Candidate moves:
d5, exd, Bxd, Qb6 and I happen to think we helped black out.

Bc4, b5, Bb6, Nb1?? (both Nd5 and Ne2 interfere with whites Queen) Qf3 but d5 fixes blacks problems ergo... Bc4, b5, Bb6, Nb1, Nxe4, Bxf7!?, Kxf7, Qf3, Nf6, Qxa1, Qb6!! preparing to trap the queen

Qd2, Nc6 (what else .. possibly Bd7), Nxc6(0-0-0, Nxe4), bxc, Bc4 or e5 (figure out how to answer Nh5 since I don't want to give up the two bishops here) are both worth investigation I believe white at least has a playable game.

Be2, Nc6, e5! now Nh5 can't be played due to Be2 and I like this position best.

I'm not totally lazy
I didn't look at Bd3 since it just seems a weak spot for the bishop and causes problems guarding Nd4.
I didn't consider other queen moves like because things like Qe2 seem to slow (developing that terrible bishop on f1)
I didn't look at h4 since after g4 it doesn't seem to have accomplished anything.
a4 is a moderately intriguing move (trying to prevent b5) but that often commits the rook to a1 long term and I don't like that with black having a dark squared fianchetto.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi

I totally despair about posts on openings. Any opening.

Usually I ignore them and let them have their fun.

This one I jumped in because it's sharp enough to be interesting and there
are quick kills and tactcial shots a plenty and I spotted an intersting Rook sac.

I wanted to keep the discussion at our level and mentioned the Tebb game


(I have a right stinking hangover.)

Game 1891607

this was not about an opening, it was you people who decided to turn it into one, it was about a position, arising from an opening, the Topalov game was shown simply as illustrative and is unusual, in fact i now only understand why, he does not want to reveal anything before the world championship match.

Secondly my question was in regard to a very general strategy, while you and the illustrious Mr Tebb launched into something totally unrelated and started looking at specific variations and even end games????. If you had even linked your variations to show how it related to a specific strategy, so much the better, nothing, centre of a doughnut.

i even posted it a second time and asked again, what general strategy would someone employ in this position due to the dynamics? nothing but variations, which my friend, is not a general strategy, and then, to pour scorn upon us, we are now subject to allegations of posting openings, it is too much! After my friend sneaked out defying her wrath to post an excellent historical account of the position and why it is creating so much interest, only last week at a world class chess tournament.

i even alluded to two games which seemed to me, to illustrate the point i was trying to make, at my level, opening up uncastled king position and using a lead in development. Is that not something that everyone can understand? More Scorn! If either you or Mr Tebb had answered the question, all would have been well, and our understanding enriched!

drink some iron bru, preferably chilled and from a glass bottle, you should be alright.

Originally posted by zebano
So much bickering so little analysis... =)


Material is even, neither king is immediately threatened.
White appears to have space centrally while black has space on the Kingside.
White is slightly more developed and has the move.
White is almost ready to castle queenside.

[b]Weaknesses/Pressing questions:
Can black castle kingside? I would be h ...[text shortened]... o a1 long term and I don't like that with black having a dark squared fianchetto.[/b]

thankyou Zebano, i shall print these off and take them to my board and see if i can understand your line of thought! 🙂

Hi Robbie.

"this was not about an opening,"

You posted 10 moves:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 Ng4
7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Bg3 Bg7 10. h3 Nf6

This postion with both Kings uncastle is still in it's opening phase.


"he [Topolov] does not want to reveal anything before the world championship match."

(sigh) Wait till Topolov finds out that you are posting his potential
game plan in the coming World Championship.

"Secondly my question was in regard to a very general strategy."

Your example of 'general stategy' was that Topolov-Grischuk
game where you defy anyone to understand it.

DT, Mephisto and myself gave what we thought we general ideas
still trying to keep it within the grasp of players to our standard.

We were honest and gave what we thought was good advice, or we attempted to.

I don't not think they deserved;

"I shall post some very interesting analysis from my friend Ulysses,
for he actually knows what he is doing."

or DT this.

"If either you or Mr Tebb had answered the question, all would have been well,
and our understanding enriched!"

It appears it did not matter what anybody would have said you were
determined to unload that post from Ulysses.

Irn Bru not working.

Hmmm....

Robbie

Don't bother replying, ignore me, I'm a total Knob sometimes.

(I thought posted another Corner today.....er....no I screwed it up and lost everything. Best move I can make? Off to bed I'm thinking).