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  1. Subscriber AttilaTheHorn
    Erro Ergo Sum
    22 May '08 11:54
    For some reason, my opponent won't accept the fact that when the only pieces left on the board are K vs. K + N + N, a checkmate cannot be forced, especially as all pieces are in the middle of the board. In theory, however, a checkmate could occur if I erred grievously. Nevertheless, surely this is a draw, but he has declined my draw offer.
    The only thing I can find in the laws of chess is:

    Rule 9.6
    "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game."

    Does this mean we must play the whole thing out until the 50-move rule kicks in? I've sent a message to site feedback. How long does it take for a reply, how can I stop my clock while I wait (like I would do in an OTB game), and will they normally halt a game like this with a draw as the result?
  2. 22 May '08 12:01
    Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn
    For some reason, my opponent won't accept the fact that when the only pieces left on the board are K vs. K + N + N, a checkmate cannot be forced, especially as all pieces are in the middle of the board. In theory, however, a checkmate could occur if I erred grievously. Nevertheless, surely this is a draw, but he has declined my draw offer.
    The only th ...[text shortened]... do in an OTB game), and will they normally halt a game like this with a draw as the result?
    Your opponent is perfectly entitled to play on for 50 moves, after which you can claim a draw.

    He does have enough material to mate and there is always the possibility of a win by time-out. He cannot possibly lose by playing on and might be able to win, so I don't blame him for trying.
  3. Subscriber C J Horse
    A stable personality
    22 May '08 12:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn
    ... however, a checkmate could occur if I erred grievously ...
    That's why it's not a draw. Checkmate is not impossible. It's annoying, but you'll just have to play it out (and make sure you don't get skulled - your opponent doesn't deserve anything more than a draw).
  4. 22 May '08 12:05
    In the two Knights vs. pawn position, wasn't the pawn behind the Troitzky line? (I suppose we can discuss this, as the pawn has already left the board)
  5. Standard member Smiffy
    SPS CLAN
    22 May '08 12:35
    There is a mating chance but it is hard ....Listen to Tebby i think he knows what hes on about .
  6. 22 May '08 19:35
    Originally posted by Smiffy
    There is a mating chance but it is hard ....Listen to Tebby i think he knows what hes on about .
    Forced mate isn't hard, it's impossible. It presumes an obvious blunder being made, and considering his rating, it's an insult to refuse the draw.
  7. Standard member English Tal
    Phoneless
    23 May '08 09:28
    Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn
    For some reason, my opponent won't accept the fact that when the only pieces left on the board are K vs. K + N + N, a checkmate cannot be forced, especially as all pieces are in the middle of the board. In theory, however, a checkmate could occur if I erred grievously. Nevertheless, surely this is a draw, but he has declined my draw offer.
    The only th ...[text shortened]... do in an OTB game), and will they normally halt a game like this with a draw as the result?
    My marathon game versus Gatecrasher in the 2007 championship refers!

    'By fair means or foul........' quoth ET.
  8. 23 May '08 13:46
    Originally posted by AttilaTheHorn
    For some reason, my opponent won't accept the fact that when the only pieces left on the board are K vs. K + N + N, a checkmate cannot be forced, especially as all pieces are in the middle of the board. In theory, however, a checkmate could occur if I erred grievously. Nevertheless, surely this is a draw, but he has declined my draw offer.
    The only th ...[text shortened]... do in an OTB game), and will they normally halt a game like this with a draw as the result?
    I once had an opponent who took this to a ridiculous extreme in a quickplay game. He had K + B against my K + P (not rook's pawn). He claimed that it was theoretically possible for him to achieve a mate in that I could promote my pawn to a bishop, and with opposite colour bishops on the board there is a theoretical mating position. I informed him as politely as I could (ie not very) that if he let me promote my pawn, I'd select a so-and-so queen and deliver mate myself!
  9. 23 May '08 13:50
    Originally posted by English Tal
    My marathon game versus Gatecrasher in the 2007 championship refers!

    'By fair means or foul........' quoth ET.
    Game 4079590
    Wow!
    Did you or he offer a draw earlier or not?
  10. Standard member English Tal
    Phoneless
    23 May '08 15:16
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    Game 4079590
    Wow!
    Did you or he offer a draw earlier or not?
    Gatecrasher offered a draw, to which I replied I was intending to time him out..... I needed the result in order finish joint top.
    The story is still unfolding, I reckon!
  11. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    23 May '08 18:59
    Originally posted by Northern Lad
    I once had an opponent who took this to a ridiculous extreme in a quickplay game. He had K + B against my K + P (not rook's pawn). He claimed that it was theoretically possible for him to achieve a mate in that I could promote my pawn to a bishop, and with opposite colour bishops on the board there is a theoretical mating position. I informed him as pol ...[text shortened]... very) that if he let me promote my pawn, I'd select a so-and-so queen and deliver mate myself!
    I assume he was trying to flag you?
  12. 29 May '08 08:08
    Game 4885012 why did I lose the game? Sure, time ran out, but isn't there a rule that when you have your king solo on the board you can't possibly claim a win?
  13. 29 May '08 10:06
    Originally posted by English Tal
    Gatecrasher offered a draw, to which I replied I was intending to time him out..... I needed the result in order finish joint top.
    The story is still unfolding, I reckon!
    Am I correct in thinking that there is a rule that says a s draw may be claimed by your opponent if they can satisfy the arbiter that you are not playing for victory 'by normal means'?

    I would of thought your marathon game could have been claimed in this manner, as a win on time is not by normal means?

    Perhaps I am mistake, but it is an interesting area of the rules, particularly in CC.
  14. 29 May '08 10:18
    Originally posted by DanVM
    Game 4885012 why did I lose the game? Sure, time ran out, but isn't there a rule that when you have your king solo on the board you can't possibly claim a win?
    Why did you let your time run out? Didn't you have control over your thinking time? I would think he is now jumping of joy! (I most certainly do! And I actually did in the Game 4827282)

    Don't lose control over your thinking time. If your opponent sees the skull, he has every right to click the skull and win the game.
  15. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    29 May '08 17:11
    The rules of chess are clear and the game is not yet a draw. 50 moves or a repetition must occur before you can claim it.

    But I do not think I will give away anything if I make a few comments on Game 4834522 with white to move at move 47 when the following position was reached.



    This position is a draw but white must be careful.

    47. d4 - d5 is the easiest and quickest way to draw although 47. Kd5 will also draw. I would push the pawn as the further down the board it gets the harder any possible win becomes for black. The objective is simple and it is for white to give up his final pawn for a technical draw.

    However if white is careless and plays 47.Kd3?? black has a "winning" move in Nd6!! It is easiest for black if white plays 47. Kf3?? when black has a number of "winning" chances although 47. ... Kf5!! is the quickest. The reason I have said "winning" is because in neither case unless white blunders further is a win possible in less than 50 moves so the position remains a probable draw.

    In any event in the game black erred by capturing whites last pawn at which time a forced win became impossible. However the game is certainly not drawn and just because a forced win is not possible does not mean a win is not possible and it is perfectly acceptable and correct for black to play on hoping for a mistake or perhaps just to improve his technique.

    To a certain extent I should not have said anything above as the game is in progress but I don't believe I have given away anything that can assist either side as my comments are on technical issues relating to a theorectical position that has long passed and cannot be recreated so I hope that some players find this useful.