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Originally posted by hammster21Winning means that you will win unless you make a gross blunder.
No, Just because someone is winning (see "I challenge" thread where black is up 3 pawns) doesn't mean he will win.
However, I understand what you really mean. The term "apparently winning" is better.
🙂
Originally posted by Mephisto2What about Ra3+ ? Isn't it winning too ?
1.Kxg5 must win. E.g. 1. ... h2 2.Rxf4+ Kg2 3.Rh4 and the white f-pawn will run for promotion.
In the original diagram, after 1.Bxa6 Rb4 still may give white a hard time, for instance 2.a5 Kf8 and black uses the position of his knight in a more active way. White is still better, but there is a lot of game still.
one line can be: Ra3+ Kg2 Kg4 h2 f3 h1=Q Ra2+ Kg1 Ra1+ Kg2 Rxh1 Kxh1 Kxg5 +- or:
Ra3+ Kg2 Kg4 h2 f3 h1=N and maybe hold the draw ?
This was CM9000 showing ?
because thsi was the first line that I have checked...
Originally posted by Restless SoulInteresting position. One (if not the only?) way for white to proceed is to go for the f-pawn and promote fast enough to prevent black from doing the same, or at least be in time to neutralise the queens and win with the other f-pawn. Obviously it is a combination of opposition and outrunning. White cannot win with opposition games only because square f5 is not available, and black has d6 and c6 available. But white can use the opposition to force black to either the 7th rank which would give white c5 and d5 to win the opposition battle, or force black to c6 when the white king is on e3 as in the following diagram with black to move:
How about a 'simple' pawn ending before moving into multi-piece endings? Here is a very interesting position.
[fen]8/2k5/p4p2/1p3P2/PP3P2/1P6/8/2K5 w - - 0 1[/fen]
White to move, find the best moves for both sides.
Now, two questions: a) how to reach that position and b) how to win from there
a) I think there are several ways to reach that position, but here is a simple one (the moves start from the posted problem diagram)
1.Kd1 (aiming towards the kingside) Kd7 (probably best for black to wait and see) 2.Ke1 Ke7 3.Kf1 (white must only move up if black threatens to reach the 4th rank) Kd6 (or Kf7 on which white also plays Ke2) 4.Ke2 Kd5 5.Kd3 (takes opposition and forces black back ) Kc6 (if Kd6 then Ke4 immediately) 6.Kd4 Kd6 (forced) 7.Ke4!
b) from the above position, it is clear that black loses if he now plays anything else than Kc6. The white king wins the fifth rank and it is easy from there. So 7. ... Kc6 8.Kf3! Kd5 (black tries to get a promotion on the queenside since he will lose if he tries to block white because he comes too late) 9.Kg3 Kd4 10.Kh4 Kc3 11.axb axb 12.Kh5
Kxb4 (Kxb3 ileads to similar positions) 13.Kg6 Kxb3 14.Kxf6 b4 15.Ke5 (the best because it helps later to neutralise the queens) Kc3 16.f6 b3 17.f7 b2 18.f8=Q b1=Q 19.Qc5+ Kd2 (if black goes to the 3thd rank then Qb5+ and queen exchange, and Qd3 Qd4+ leads to similar play) 20.Qd4+ and whatever black plays, the next check forces exchange of queens e.g. Ke2 21.Qe4+ and white wins with the remaining pawn.
Originally posted by Mephisto2very good game analysis. However, Black's best defense isn't to rush to the center right away like you had him doing on his 4th move. Any ideas of how to force the black king into the center to use your other ideas you posted?
Interesting position. One (if not the only?) way for white to proceed is to go for the f-pawn and promote fast enough to prevent black from doing the same, or at least be in time to neutralise the queens and win with the other f-pawn. Obviously it is a combination of opposition and outrunning. White cannot win with opposition games only because square f5 i ...[text shortened]... he next check forces exchange of queens e.g. Ke2 21.Qe4+ and white wins with the remaining pawn.
Originally posted by Restless SoulBlack's 4th move was not the only one, of course. But the alternatives are not better:
very good game analysis. However, Black's best defense isn't to rush to the center right away like you had him doing on his 4th move. Any ideas of how to force the black king into the center to use your other ideas you posted?
4. ... Kc6 5.Kf3 and black has no choice but play Kd5 and try to promote, since he is certainly not in time to block white on his way to the f-pawn
4. ... Kd7 5.Ke3! and now Kd6 6.Ke4 brings us back to my analysis, whereas 5. ... Kc6 is again answered by 6.Kf3 as above
Originally posted by Restless SoulThat's not a very "simple" endgame if you ask me. There are less pieces yes, but a single tempo is the difference between winning and losing. Assuming you could guess you opponents moves correctly, you would have to calculate deep enough to see if you could win or not.
How about a 'simple' pawn ending before moving into multi-piece endings? Here is a very interesting position.
[fen]8/2k5/p4p2/1p3P2/PP3P2/1P6/8/2K5 w - - 0 1[/fen]
White to move, find the best moves for both sides.
Originally posted by hammster21Maybe I need to break this down a little bit. Instead of looking at the whole board lets break it down into sections.
Endgame #3
[fen]8/1K5p/8/2P2P2/1P4p1/P2k4/1B3p2/2n5 b - - 0 1[/fen]
Black to play
Calling this endgame complicated is an understatement. Black is a pawn down and trying desperately to draw. Before we get into specifics, Lets hear what you guys think about...
-who's winning
-who will win
-what will be whites plan
-what is blacks next move and his plan for his next 5 moves
- Can blacks passed pawn queen (upwards remember, black is going up)
- Can whites pawns queen with blacks king and knight there?
These are the first things you should check for, a forced win. Either by checkmate, or queening a pawn.
Originally posted by hammster21g5, with the intention of keeping the most available pawn moves for black. The bishop cannot take the knight without black queening, the knight cannot let the a pawn pass, so they are in balance at the moment. After white moves, then invade with the king, with the intention of winning pawns on the queenside. When white takes the opposition, the available pawn moves will allow black the tempo to force white into zugzwang?
Maybe I need to break this down a little bit. Instead of looking at the whole board lets break it down into sections.
- Can blacks passed pawn queen (upwards remember, black is going up)
- Can whites pawns queen with blacks king and knight there?
These are the first things you should check for, a forced win. Either by checkmate, or queening a pawn.
3 edits
Originally posted by ExumaGreat. You realized that in order for either side to queen a pawn, the kings need to get involved. Taking the opposition isn't as big of a deal though. White still has his bishop which he can shuffle and move to defend his weak pawn. Next question is...
g5, with the intention of keeping the most available pawn moves for black. The bishop cannot take the knight without black queening, the knight cannot let the a pawn pass, so they are in balance at the moment. After white moves, then invade with the king, with the intention of winning pawns on the queenside. When white takes the opposition, the available pawn moves will allow black the tempo to force white into zugzwang?
Black to move
-What is whites plan. Should he try to advance his passed pawns or does he have enough time to try to round up blacks passed pawns.
-What is blacks plan
*Bonus Question*
-What will be the outcome of this game
Originally posted by Hells CaretakerNice. Just make sure you put what endgame your referring to. That was #1, I think we're on #3 now. But black won't have time to play around because white has an outside passed pawn that will tie down his rook.
1:Bxa6 Rxa6,2:Rxd4 looks best as i see.White rook cover's the a-pawn and then march the king over to queenside and force black to commit.Although with this plan black has time to play around because of white's corrupted kingside pawns.
Originally posted by hammster21White is in a holding pattern and must be careful not to step on the long dark square diagonal with the king.
Great. You realized that in order for either side to queen a pawn, the kings need to get involved. Taking the opposition isn't as big of a deal though. White still has his bishop which he can shuffle and move to defend his weak pawn. Next question is...
[fen]8/7p/3K4/2P2p2/1Pk5/P7/1B3p2/2n5 b - - 0 1[/fen]
Black to move
-What is whites plan. Should h ...[text shortened]... passed pawns.
-What is blacks plan
*Bonus Question*
-What will be the outcome of this game
Black might like it if king was on b3 and could trade N for B.
But it looks a bit drawish now...