Originally posted by KellyJayI think the point they are making is if a scientist wants to figure out the boiling point of water vs altitude, the same conclusions would be made regardless of the race, species, or whatever evolves, say a hundred million years from now, long after humanity has disappeared and say, birds evolve to human level intelligence, or a life form with our level of intelligence on a planet in Andromeda Galaxy, with the same atmosphere as earth, the same sat of conditions will lead to the same measurements and the same conclusions, water will boil at such and such a temperature, no matter what the scale used by whomever happens to work on such a problem, the same conclusions will be made and to that extent, scientific knowledge is universal and does not need humans to prove it, the proof can be made by monkey's if they are intelligent and curious enough.
It was suggested that science's facts had nothing to do with people,
and I disagreed. I don't want to go over the whole of the debate
again, my point remains the same, reality does not have anything
to do with any human's point of view, while science is built upon
human observation, human conclusions, human testing, and so on.
You cannot tell me that a ...[text shortened]... to people when
at the same time it is people who are giving us the scientific facts.
Kelly
Originally posted by sonhousescientific knowledge is universal and does not need humans to prove it, the proof can be made by monkey's if they are intelligent and curious enough.
I think the point they are making is if a scientist wants to figure out the boiling point of water vs altitude, the same conclusions would be made regardless of the race, species, or whatever evolves, say a hundred million years from now, long after humanity has disappeared and say, birds evolve to human level intelligence, or a life form with our level of ...[text shortened]... mans to prove it, the proof can be made by monkey's if they are intelligent and curious enough.
Which, indeed, we are. (well ok, we are apes, not monkeys).
--- Penguin.
Originally posted by PenguinNot exactly. While it's true we share 98% or so of genes with apes and chimps, we evolved from a much older line so we are related only in the distant past. I think that split happened something like 5 million years ago where the ape-human line split from the progenitor species. We formed two different branches of the evolutionary tree at that point.
[b]scientific knowledge is universal and does not need humans to prove it, the proof can be made by monkey's if they are intelligent and curious enough.
Which, indeed, we are. (well ok, we are apes, not monkeys).
--- Penguin.[/b]
Originally posted by sonhouseWater boils, the temperature comes in degrees either Celsius or
I think the point they are making is if a scientist wants to figure out the boiling point of water vs altitude, the same conclusions would be made regardless of the race, species, or whatever evolves, say a hundred million years from now, long after humanity has disappeared and say, birds evolve to human level intelligence, or a life form with our level of ...[text shortened]... mans to prove it, the proof can be made by monkey's if they are intelligent and curious enough.
Fahrenheit or some other human assignment that comes from
us when we setup our systems of measuring temperatures, that
is humanity at work. With respect to the views people once had
about the earth when they thought it was flat, basically we caught
up with reality there, our knowledge about the earth did not add
to or take away from its real shape, that is because our beliefs
do not always reflect reality.
Kelly
Originally posted by PenguinYou may call yourself an ape or monkey, basically I call myself
[b]scientific knowledge is universal and does not need humans to prove it, the proof can be made by monkey's if they are intelligent and curious enough.
Which, indeed, we are. (well ok, we are apes, not monkeys).
--- Penguin.[/b]
human.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayMy point is this: Other intelligences surely exist in the universe, it would be a piss poor place if humans were all there were, that would be disgusting. So if on these planets, they make the same study of water, they will come to the same conclusion, and for sure will not use C or F in their measurements, their temperature scale would be a lot different from ours, for instance, lets suppose their body temperature was 150 degrees F, then they might come to the same conclusion and decide 100 degrees (if in fact they even talk in decimal, could be tertery or hex for all we know) but they might decide 100 degrees is their body temp and so 100 degrees represents 150/212 ths of the way to boiling at our STP. The point is they will still see water boiling with the same amount of heat energy input regardless of what they call it, so the boiling point of water is universal, would be the same no matter what life form measures it or how they call their temperature scale.
Water boils, the temperature comes in degrees either Celsius or
Fahrenheit or some other human assignment that comes from
us when we setup our systems of measuring temperatures, that
is humanity at work. With respect to the views people once had
about the earth when they thought it was flat, basically we caught
up with reality there, our knowledge abou ...[text shortened]... ake away from its real shape, that is because our beliefs
do not always reflect reality.
Kelly
Originally posted by sonhouseInteresting. I thought we were still classed as apes.
Not exactly. While it's true we share 98% or so of genes with apes and chimps, we evolved from a much older line so we are related only in the distant past. I think that split happened something like 5 million years ago where the ape-human line split from the progenitor species. We formed two different branches of the evolutionary tree at that point.
A quick look at Wikipedia (which, obviously could be wrong) gives this:
"The great apes are the members of the biological family Hominidae which includes humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.[1][2]"
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
So we are in the same family but different species. That is around the level I thought. Actually, it has been suggested that we may biologically be able to breed with Chimps. I'm suggesting for a moment that should though!
--- Penguin.
Originally posted by Penguin"The great apes are the members of the biological family Hominidae which includes humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans."
Interesting. I thought we were still classed as apes.
A quick look at Wikipedia (which, obviously could be wrong) gives this:
"The great apes are the members of the biological family Hominidae which includes humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.[1][2]"
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
So we are in the same family but di ...[text shortened]... be able to breed with Chimps. I'm suggesting for a moment that should though!
--- Penguin.
Tigers and lions are the same cat-animal family, but it doesn't mean that the tigers are evoluted from the lions or vice versa. (Only a remark, an extension, no critics.)
Those who say that "man cannot evolve from an ape, becase there is no apelike about us" doesn't understand that our common ancestor have also evolved to it's present apearance (ape-erance 🙂 ). At the time of specie splitting, we were of course next to exactly similar to eachother.
Originally posted by PenguinThe definition of 'different species' means you can't breed together, like humans and chimps. If it could have been done, it would already be reality. It hasn't happened and will not happen unless genetic engineers force it to be so, and there would be heavy bio-ethics involved and anyone doing so would do so outside the realm of science in a hidden lab in a jungle somewhere or an isolated island.
Interesting. I thought we were still classed as apes.
A quick look at Wikipedia (which, obviously could be wrong) gives this:
"The great apes are the members of the biological family Hominidae which includes humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.[1][2]"
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
So we are in the same family but di ...[text shortened]... be able to breed with Chimps. I'm suggesting for a moment that should though!
--- Penguin.
Originally posted by sonhouseNo dispute there, I'm just saying that reality is what it is, sometimes
My point is this: Other intelligences surely exist in the universe, it would be a piss poor place if humans were all there were, that would be disgusting. So if on these planets, they make the same study of water, they will come to the same conclusion, and for sure will not use C or F in their measurements, their temperature scale would be a lot different f ...[text shortened]... would be the same no matter what life form measures it or how they call their temperature scale.
we get it right some times we do not when we think we have wrapped
our minds around it all. That said, nothing changes, man is still the
creature that goes for the knowledge and is still the creature that
sets up his/her tools for understanding. I already acknowledge reality
does not require man to understand it, and having another species
look at something with understanding still does not mean man in
man's desire to understand does not have a hand in that process. I
believe where we are partying company is that I do not give man
credit for reality, science may lead us to understanding reality, but
it can also mislead us too, and man is not divorced from the process
no matter how much understanding or reality man does get right.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayHere is what I think: you have a need to have a god in your life, therefore men will always, in your mind, be compared to this infinite wisdom of your god. Therefore you always will hold anything men say as suspect, being just a poor shadow of your imagined god.
No dispute there, I'm just saying that reality is what it is, sometimes
we get it right some times we do not when we think we have wrapped
our minds around it all. That said, nothing changes, man is still the
creature that goes for the knowledge and is still the creature that
sets up his/her tools for understanding. I already acknowledge reality
does n ...[text shortened]... orced from the process
no matter how much understanding or reality man does get right.
Kelly
Originally posted by sonhouseI agree with having God in my life sort of puts man in a poorer light;
Here is what I think: you have a need to have a god in your life, therefore men will always, in your mind, be compared to this infinite wisdom of your god. Therefore you always will hold anything men say as suspect, being just a poor shadow of your imagined god.
however, imagined is a matter of your belief about God not mine. It
is matter of faith on my part yes. Nothing I said about man; however,
would be untrue even if I didn't have God in my life either. We still
start, stop, and do all the work in the middle setting up all the
boundaries of our science; therefore, man and science are not
something you can say are ever apart from one another. I am
surprised you think this is a bad thing too.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayIf your god is real, then have him send me an email, I will listen.
I agree with having God in my life sort of puts man in a poorer light;
however, imagined is a matter of your belief about God not mine. It
is matter of faith on my part yes. Nothing I said about man; however,
would be untrue even if I didn't have God in my life either. We still
start, stop, and do all the work in the middle setting up all the
boundarie ...[text shortened]... say are ever apart from one another. I am
surprised you think this is a bad thing too.
Kelly
So far all I hear is men spouting about a god that sounds suspiciously like what men would want in a god, so I don't think anyone really knows about a god, just what they project a god should be like. For now I'll take what seems to be the best in men and try to be a good person in that light, I don't need to reference a god every time I eat, sleep, or take a crap.
Originally posted by sonhouseI really do not know how you got God telling you about eating, sleeping,
If your god is real, then have him send me an email, I will listen.
So far all I hear is men spouting about a god that sounds suspiciously like what men would want in a god, so I don't think anyone really knows about a god, just what they project a god should be like. For now I'll take what seems to be the best in men and try to be a good person in that light, I don't need to reference a god every time I eat, sleep, or take a crap.
or taking a crap out of man and science not being discontected, but
okay.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJaySome people, you probably not included, are afraid of their own shadow, so uncertain they are that they have to have the talisman of the invisible god to talk to to worship every time they eat, pray to ten times a day, in short obsessing about god. This cannot be healthy. My grandmother was one of those, afraid to live, afraid to die, convinced she is living in sin just because she was alive, and went crazy as a result. I have seen this up close and personal and want nothing to do with it. This god must have disliked her a lot to drive her insane like that, not a god I would want as a friend. I get along just fine without one.
I really do not know how you got God telling you about eating, sleeping,
or taking a crap out of man and science not being discontected, but
okay.
Kelly