Originally posted by sonhouseHow can a journey through a sphere be one-dimensional?
KJ, the point about finite but unbounded has a three dimensional analogy:
The Earth itself. You would have to agree it's finite, right? You drill a hole deep enough and you pop up on the opposite side of the earth, say you start in Kansas, go straight down, you end up in china at the other end of the hole, right?
That is a one dimensional journey showing the finiteness of the Earth.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI have laughed at the mental jumps they are making to 'kind of' 'sort
Just the sort of language once used to describe God, the 'unmoved mover'.
Are you laughing? You should be.
of' make it sound reasonable. Everything has to be suppended or
flat out denied in order to get away from saying some thing or some
one out side of the universe started it all, from time and so on.
Kelly
Originally posted by Bosse de NageA two dimensional object is like a piece of paper, X and Y co-ordinates. So if you draw a line say from center left to center right, when you draw that line, you are making a one dimensional journey, a line is one dimension. An area is 2 dimensions. A volume is 3 dimensions, and spacetime is 4 dimensions, plus the curve that would bring you back to your starting place traveling through the universe I think has to be described in terms of 5 dimensions.
How can a journey through a sphere be one-dimensional?
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Originally posted by KellyJayI have no idea what you are driving at with that statement. What has video games to do with the idea of coming back where you started in our universe? Do you think Einstein is totally wrong about C being the speed of light and nothing material can go faster? Do you think for instance, that space is 'bent' even around the earth? Do you think time goes at exactly the same rate if you are on Earth vs if you are a half light year out away from the solar system away from all gravity wells, or planets or asteroids, do you think time runs the exact same there? Have you ever thought of such things as time as a variable?
Yes, like I said a buggy video game is how you are bending that
straight line to make do what you want. Small wonder your logic
seems reasonable if rules only apply when you want them too.
Kelly
You must have, considering you think the entire universe is 10,000 years old. Here is something to consider and of course be rejected by you: Take a telescope, even a nice pair of binoculars, look at the moon. You see countless craters. Why is it in the last 1000 years or more of recorded astronomical observations, that only one object hit the moon with enough of a flash to be recorded by the un-aided eye in all that time? According to your precepts, that should be 10% of the way back to the beginning of time so if say, all those hits happened on the moon starting say, 10,000 years ago and then ceased say, 9,000 years ago, why don't we see the same thing on earth? We can count the # of big hits on one hand, visible craters like the Barringer Crater in Arizona or the Chixulub crater in the Yucatan penninsala, why do we have so few craters now and how could they have disappeared in only 8,000 years? Why don't we find huge craters in Antarctica, which has been iced over for thousands of years, we can see that, its got a couple of mile of ice building up layer by layer. Where are the hits? Astronomers are monitoring the moon 24/7 now, some of them anyway, a moonwatch just looking for new craters and they are few and far between even with high powered telescopes. How could the Earth have recovered from all that bombardment, surely you would have to think if the moon got plastered the Earth would have also.
So where are the craters? Mankind now has about 3,000 years of recorded history to count on, a third of the way back to your supposed beginning and there have been no big disasters like big meteors, the latest one to make a big spash occurring in Russia in 1908 I think it was, big enough to flatten about 100 square miles of forest but so far there isn't even a crater so it had to have exploded overhead like a hydrogen bomb. Why don't we get more of those? So can you answer any of the ponts I just brought up, about time running different on Earth than in space away from planets or suns, do you think that is true or would you deny that? And the craters on the moon, why aren't there more on the earth?
Originally posted by sonhouseSo the journey you describe is a one-dimensional journey through four dimensions?
A two dimensional object is like a piece of paper, X and Y co-ordinates. So if you draw a line say from center left to center right, when you draw that line, you are making a one dimensional journey, a line is one dimension. An area is 2 dimensions. A volume is 3 dimensions, and spacetime is 4 dimensions, plus the curve that would bring you back to your st ...[text shortened]... rting place traveling through the universe I think has to be described in terms of 5 dimensions.
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Originally posted by KellyJayThe language does become somewhat vague and mystical. "It just happened -- accept it" -- but why?
I have laughed at the mental jumps they are making to 'kind of' 'sort
of' make it sound reasonable. Everything has to be suppended or
flat out denied in order to get away from saying some thing or some
one out side of the universe started it all, from time and so on.
Kelly
Of course the Big Bang didn't happen--everything started happening after it ...
Any dogmatic opposition to the idea of infinite Big Bangs?
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Originally posted by sonhouseIt is about going in a straight line and ending up where you started,
I have no idea what you are driving at with that statement. What has video games to do with the idea of coming back where you started in our universe? Do you think Einstein is totally wrong about C being the speed of light and nothing material can go faster? Do you think for instance, that space is 'bent' even around the earth? Do you think time goes at exa or would you deny that? And the craters on the moon, why aren't there more on the earth?
you do that in a circle not a straight line, logic breaks down with you
telling me that you can go in a straight line and end up where you
started. That can and does happen in a video game, sort of occurs
when the game area isn't all that big and you just plow through the
same area over and over leave the left side come in the right.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayWe are not talking about a video game, it's the universe, the way it works.
It is about going in a straight line and ending up where you started,
you do that in a circle not a straight line, logic breaks down with you
telling me that you can go in a straight line and end up where you
started. That can and does happen in a video game, sort of occurs
when the game area isn't all that big and you just plow through the
same area over and over leave the left side come in the right.
Kelly
Do you think time flows the same everywhere? Can you give any kind of reasoned answer to my questions in the previous post?
Originally posted by Bosse de NageSounds accurate. I think you are talking about drilling a hole and going straight through the Earth, right? That would be a one dimensional movement through a 4 dimensional spacetime, but it would involve time so there would be 2 dimensions to the travel, up/down + time.
So the journey you describe is a one-dimensional journey through four dimensions?
Originally posted by sonhouseI'm also saying time will not bend a straight line, it is either straight
We are not talking about a video game, it's the universe, the way it works.
Do you think time flows the same everywhere? Can you give any kind of reasoned answer to my questions in the previous post?
or it isn't. I have had the time discussion before, my point then and
now is I'm not convinced that time changes, I have more faith in that
what we use *all items* to measure time can be affected more so
than time itself.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayYou should read up on GPS units. They have atomic clocks in orbit and they are measurably off from the same ones on the ground. That problem makes it hard to get the GPS to work, if relativistic time shifts were not taken into account, the GPS's we all have learned to depend on would be only about 1 or 2 Kilometers accurate instead of a couple of meters or less. The GPS satellites send radio signals that have to be extremely accurate, one radar mile is 12 microseconds. That is actually the time it takes for radio or light to travel 2 miles, one mile out to a target and then the reflection coming back. So if your clocks were out by one microsecond, the GPS would only be accurate to within 1/6th mile. The whole deal works by sending out exact timing pulses. So if time itself shifts, the timing shifts and the GPS signal is not as accurate.
I'm also saying time will not bend a straight line, it is either straight
or it isn't. I have had the time discussion before, my point then and
now is I'm not convinced that time changes, I have more faith in that
what we use *all items* to measure time can be affected more so
than time itself.
Kelly
What is happening is on the ground, you can have two atomic clocks which are EXTREMELY accurate at the same altitude. If you even take one, leave it on the ground and put the other one in a fast car, it can show the resultant change in the flow of time from relativistic effects.
Time flow changes if you go fast VS going slow AND the flow of time changes if you are in the bottom of a deep gravity well, like the surface of the earth VS being out in space. So the GPS satellites have two components of time to account for, the velocity in orbit Vs not moving on earth and the difference in gravity, higher gravity=slower time flow.
So its an extremely difficult problem, one however, that the GPS receiver has solved, each GPS handheld, carbound, whatever, has a computer inside that solves all the time issues in a neat set of software that figures out how far off a timing signal is based on the relative velocity and altitude of each GPS satellite as it moves in its orbit.
If it did not calculate the change in time flow based on relativistic equations invented by Einstein, the GPS system would be no more accurate than a 15th century map. You can take THAT to the bank.
If you know any other way a pair of atomic clocks can vary then by all means write a paper, the scientists at NASA and the NIST would love to know what the real reason is. Of course if all you have is your gut feeling they might not be so receptive to your criticism.
Originally posted by sonhouseBefore you start proving your point on time changing, define it for me.
You should read up on GPS units. They have atomic clocks in orbit and they are measurably off from the same ones on the ground. That problem makes it hard to get the GPS to work, if relativistic time shifts were not taken into account, the GPS's we all have learned to depend on would be only about 1 or 2 Kilometers accurate instead of a couple of meters or ...[text shortened]... Of course if all you have is your gut feeling they might not be so receptive to your criticism.
Kelly
Originally posted by sonhouseGravity affects everything in our physical world, that does not mean
You should read up on GPS units. They have atomic clocks in orbit and they are measurably off from the same ones on the ground. That problem makes it hard to get the GPS to work, if relativistic time shifts were not taken into account, the GPS's we all have learned to depend on would be only about 1 or 2 Kilometers accurate instead of a couple of meters or ...[text shortened]... Of course if all you have is your gut feeling they might not be so receptive to your criticism.
that time is effected unless you can touch time, I suggest what you
could be looking at is simply the effects of gravity upon our measuring
devices.
Kelly