Originally posted by sonhouseAgreed much more poetic and if your gonna make up a story why not be as creative as possible :-)
Here is a Hindu account of creation, all in all I think more creative than the Zorastrian 6 day version:
Hindu
This universe existed in the shape of darkness, unperceived, destitute of distinctive marks, unattainable by reasoning, unknowable, wholly immersed, as it were, in deep sleep.
Then the Divine Self-existent, himself indiscernible but making ...[text shortened]... of those six, which possess measureless power, with particles of himself, he created all beings.
Originally posted by timebombtedI was asked how I rationalized my reasons for creation and that is
Yes it was my misconception regarding first life vs first everything.
No I don't claim to know all the answers, no one does, but lack of knowing in one field provides no weight to your design / creation / god argument. So I cannot see how your "nothing touches it" statement has any merit, it does not attempt to explain anything with logic or reason, j ...[text shortened]... ll if this trend continues in the future.
Blindly trusting god did it, teaches us nothing.
the biggest reason. It may not mean much to you, but to me if you
cannot get out of the starting block you will never complete the race.
If you cannot give a good reason for everything your reasons for
what you see today are no different than any other man made story,
you are starting in the middle and looking backwards. All stories
or theories that have today’s results as their end solution will sound
reasonable, but that does not mean the stories are true. With respect
to design and not learning anything I'd beg to differ the only
difference would be we should be looking for logical reasons for
things instead of just saying 'evolution did it', not much different
than 'God did it' in my opinion.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayWe are way past 'evolution did it'. Every new discovery leads the way. The newest work involves DNA analysis of early humans, which can be used to trace the many migrations out of africa. The thing is, when you get information from many many different sources it takes on a life of its own and only a blind man would ignore it. KJ, you have blinders on whether you know it or not or admit it or not. I would guess you to say, yes, and I am proud of my blinders since I follow the true path and only pity the poor savages of the rest of humanity who can't see the whole truth'.
I was asked how I rationalized my reasons for creation and that is
the biggest reason. It may not mean much to you, but to me if you
cannot get out of the starting block you will never complete the race.
If you cannot give a good reason for everything your reasons for
what you see today are no different than any other man made story,
you are starting i ...[text shortened]... just saying 'evolution did it', not much different
than 'God did it' in my opinion.
Kelly
Around here in Pennsylvania, there is a saying 'Yep, I'm Pennsylvania Dutch, dumb and proud of it', and they are serious.
Do you wish to be seen in that light?
Originally posted by KellyJayPlease clarify:
I was asked how I rationalized my reasons for creation and that is
the biggest reason. It may not mean much to you, but to me if you
cannot get out of the starting block you will never complete the race.
If you cannot give a good reason for everything your reasons for
what you see today are no different than any other man made story,
you are starting i ...[text shortened]... just saying 'evolution did it', not much different
than 'God did it' in my opinion.
Kelly
In the world of KJ, because science cannot yet answer "the start of everything", everything we see today must be taken with a pinch of salt. To what extremes do you hold this belief? Science has shown us the world is not flat?....... with your logic do you believe it is flat?
......and if you truely believe science approaches everything with "evolution did it" in the same context as "god did it" you are truely living in the dark ages.
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Originally posted by timebombtedIn the world of KJ if science does not have an answer, if science does
Please clarify:
In the world of KJ, because science cannot yet answer "the start of everything", everything we see today must be taken with a pinch of salt. To what extremes do you hold this belief? Science has shown us the world is not flat?....... with your logic do you believe it is flat?
......and if you truely believe science approaches everyt lution did it" in the same context as "god did it" you are truely living in the dark ages.
not have a theory, if science in no way shape or form speaks to a
subject it has nothing to complain about. So with respect to creation
if there is nothing to replace it with, exactly how do you know creation
is wrong? How do you say evidence does or does not support creation
if there is no way science can even speak to the subject?
Kelly
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Originally posted by sonhouseYes, I know you are past that and moved on evolution, you have to
We are way past 'evolution did it'. Every new discovery leads the way. The newest work involves DNA analysis of early humans, which can be used to trace the many migrations out of africa. The thing is, when you get information from many many different sources it takes on a life of its own and only a blind man would ignore it. KJ, you have blinders on whethe utch, dumb and proud of it', and they are serious.
Do you wish to be seen in that light?
do that since you have no answer for the questions I have asked. I'm
fine with that, with all your data sources they cannot get you the
answers I asked for, we can move on to the next subject.
In case you want to revisit the topic I'm asking where everything
comes from. If you have no answer I suggest you have a huge hole
in your knowledge that all your information sources simply have failed
to give you the answers to.
If you want to talk about the beginning of life I actually have questions
about that I’d like answers to if you’re interested, but I imagine we will
end up in the same place we did with the creation questions too.
I should be able to get my post on the eye out this weekend.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayWhy are you asking questions like where does everything come from when you know full well nobody on Earth knows the answer to that and why should I be any different? The thing is, you have only a thin window of time for your religious certainty, by the end of this century and I think a lot sooner, there will be solid scientific answers to the big questions like that so you can feel good about your involvement in your faith. Its your grandkids who will have problems with faith when it is shown you take elements X,Y, and Z and mix them with energy A, B, and C for some length of time and boing, out pops lifeforms, like bacteria, which at this point in time are dauntingly complex, even the simple forms are beyond our ability to suss out completely, and I mean AT THIS TIME. There will be a time in the near future where it all comes together with information from organic chemistry, space probes bringing back samples of comets, analyzing mars rocks brought back to earth, probes now on the drawing boards sinking through the 50 mile deep layer of ice on Europa to get to the liquid water we are sure is there, with it's possibility of life existing in a huge under ice ocean, returning samples to earth, etc., etc., all of these coming events will play out if we manage to maintain a technical civilization for the next couple hundred years, managing the decline in climate and so forth. If we don't manage the decline in climate(THE major problem facing mankind), we won't get to do any of the above because we will be too busy with basic survival to even THINK about science and spaceflight and such and won't have the resources to launch a grapefruit into orbit much less major deep solar efforts. Anyway, enjoy your certaintude while you can, it is destined to have a short lifespan. You are just baiting with those kind of questions. If I really had the answers I would be on a short list for the Nobel Prize. All we have is speculation at this point but you knew that. That's what I don't understand, why you would be asking a photonics technician these questions as if I am going to come up with some astounding insight. So why the game? I know I can ask questions about the validity of religious dogma as far as how real it is but you cannot at this time say with certainty the human race will not figure it all out at some point in the future. There are a LOT of geniuses on the planet, that's what they are built for, to figure stuff out, stuff that we have no solid answers for. We don't need a god to give us that, we already have the gifts to work it out. The thing is, you have no trust in the mind of man, so perverted by your religious dogma, that any human is such a lessor creature in your eyes that nothing can ever come from pure human endeavors but in that you are absolutely wrong. We don't need god to answer the big questions, just the genius that is the gift of the human race and more time. You reach out with contempt what you consider the puny efforts of mankind but you neglect to see what is in store in the future. For one thing, if the human intellect is not intelligent enough to answer the big questions by itself, we will have silicon help within the next 30 or 40 years in the form of computers with more than human intelligence so we have an incredible future we are building up for ourselves with no need for a god, your god or any god, we are quite capable of making a heaven here on earth if we get by the next 200 years intact. That doesn't mean we WILL make a heaven on earth in the next 200 years, just that we have a great shot at it if we get our act together and not a god in sight.
Yes, I know you are past that and moved on evolution, you have to
do that since you have no answer for the questions I have asked. I'm
fine with that, with all your data sources they cannot get you the
answers I asked for, we can move on to the next subject.
In case you want to revisit the topic I'm asking where everything
comes from. If you have no ...[text shortened]... creation questions too.
I should be able to get my post on the eye out this weekend.
Kelly
As for religious issues, I can ask questions for sure, for instance, the Noah Flood. If there was a flood that killed off all but a few tens of humans in the Arc, then why are there now all the races on earth and why does the fossil record show the migrations of populations around the planet, we can trace it with DNA analysis. So how did Australian Bushmen come about after the so-called flood when the people of the Arc were Semetic? Or Asians, or Blue Black Africans, how could such well established diversity come about from Semetic stock? The answer is it couldn't. We already have solid DNA data on humans dating all the way back to before there were humans, DNA analysis of Neandertals and such and DNA from gravesites in the common era, and a few thousand years before. There was no huge jump in the DNA data that would have had to have dated from say, 5000 years ago or whenever the flood and the Noah story was supposed to take place. We have built in genetic clocks and we can tell very well how long it takes for a mutation to enter the mainstream and if the Noah story was true, the migration routes would by definition have to have started with Mount Ararat but no such data shows up, which shows the whole story to be just that, another BS story, it is merely an allegory on the human condition, an ancient boogieman tale to scare the uninformed and nothing more, just like the supposed three day tale of Christ coming back to life and ascending into heaven or the Genesis (actually Zoroastrian) story of creation. All Allegory having nothing to do with reality, and everything to do with the idea of controlling men and subjugating women. In that task it has succeeded spectacularly.
Originally posted by KellyJaySonhouse has provided a lenghty an excellent post to your game, so I will be brief.
In the world of KJ if science does not have an answer, if science does
not have a theory, if science in no way shape or form speaks to a
subject it has nothing to complain about. So with respect to creation
if there is nothing to replace it with, exactly how do you know creation
is wrong? How do you say evidence does or does not support creation
if there is no way science can even speak to the subject?
Kelly
I do not believe religion has it right as there is ZERO evidence for any of these mumbo mumbo stories.
I believe science will find the right answers, with progressive thoughts, technologies, predictions and research. The past is an indication of this.
One is attempting to answer the questions with logic and reason, the other remains in the dark ages whilst burying its head in the sand. Can you tell which is which? I very much doubt it.
I'm sure you will continue to believe that a question with no answer defaults to your creation story having more weight..... unfortunately it adds nothing to the authenticity of your belief system.
4 edits
Originally posted by KellyJay…. I'm asking where everything
Yes, I know you are past that and moved on evolution, you have to
do that since you have no answer for the questions I have asked. I'm
fine with that, with all your data sources they cannot get you the
answers I asked for, we can move on to the next subject.
In case you want to revisit the topic I'm asking where everything
comes from. If you have no ...[text shortened]... creation questions too.
I should be able to get my post on the eye out this weekend.
Kelly
comes from. If you have no answer I suggest you have a huge hole
in your knowledge .…
sonhouse was talking about the overwhelming evidence for evolution.
Evolution is part of his and my knowledge.
Evolution is NOT a theory of “where everything comes from” because it is merely a theory of how simpler life forms developed into generally more complex life forms and allowed life to diversify AFTER the first life formed.
Therefore, the mere fact that our knowledge evolution doesn’t explain “where everything comes from” is not a “huge hole” in our knowledge as you suggested, it isn’t even a tiny hole because, obviously, evolution is not even supposed to explain “where everything comes from”. Obviously it is NOT a requirement of evolution to explain “where everything comes from” and, the fact that it doesn’t explain “where everything comes from”, obviously does NOT in any way diminish what it does explain nor does it in any way diminish the mountain of evidence in support of evolution. Do you deny this?
So the fact that evolution doesn’t explain “where everything came from” is totally irrelevant to the issue here.
There is simply no scientific evidence for the beginnings of macro-evolution. What I mean by that is there is no scientific evidence that abiogenesis is possible. How is it that life can be produced from something without life? It can't be observed. It can't be re-produced, but it is accepted as a fact of life by anyone who believes in natural evolution.
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Originally posted by EladarDidn't you read the last post? Evolution has nothing to say about the actual origin of life. That is another field of science. It is looking more and more that the interstellar gas that compressed to make our sun had the precursors of life in the clouds themselves. The latest one to be found is
There is simply no scientific evidence for the beginnings of macro-evolution. What I mean by that is there is no scientific evidence that abiogenesis is possible. How is it that life can be produced from something without life? It can't be observed. It can't be re-produced, but it is accepted as a fact of life by anyone who believes in natural evolution.
Naphthalene, a pretty complex molecule. Of course it is up to scientists to show that molecule X mixed with molecule Y and Z for A amount of time at such and such a temperature in ice or mud or hot water or clay or whatever, will result in some kind of primitive life form. Nobody just automatically assumes that is the case, just we are getting closer to the time when we can make such an announcement. When we do, I for one will love to see the look on KJ's face and others who staunchly believes in creationism.
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Didn't you read the last post? Evolution has nothing to say about the actual origin of life.
Sorry, but I'm not going to buy that. Either you have a complete working model or you don't. If it makes you feel better about your beliefs to say that I'm not going to worry about a complete picture, then that's up to you. But all you are doing is making yourself feel better about ignoring certain things.
Nobody just automatically assumes that is the case, just we are getting closer to the time when we can make such an announcement. When we do,
Evidently you automatically assume at one time we will. I'd classify your belief in abiogenesis as religious. You have faith in something that you have not seen.
In any case, even if we can one day find a way of creating life from something inert, this does not take God out of the picture. It doesn't even take literal creation out of the picture. It would just make you feel better about your beiefs about the origins of life and the nature of existance.
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Originally posted by EladarThat's just not how it works. You have many sciences that have sub-divisions, like astronomy, astronomers don't make up tales about the beginning of the universe, that job is up to Cosmologists. They are the ones who fight over Big Bangs, steady state, string theory and the like. It's the same in evolutionary theory, the evolutionists stick with what they know, the small changes that build up at a certain rate and random mutations that stick and so forth to change one species to another. They don't have to worry themselves about how life started. There is a whole other team of scientists working on that problem. What you don't seem to understand, more likely don't WANT to understand, is the problem of life is extremely complex and it takes generations of scientific advance to suss it all out. If that is too slow for you so be it. Humans, not being gods, have to figure things out one slow bit at a time. So don't dis evolutionists for not taking on the job of figuring out how it all started, they have their hands full just figuring out the changes that took place since life started, however that was. Wait around, there will be answers to that question but of course you and all your creationist buddies will just poo-poo the answers that do come out and the battle will continue even when scientists show that if you do X,Y, and Z, life comes out of inanimate matter every time or almost every time. That time will come I think but if it doesn't come for 200 years its because life is so very complex as to defy logic. But I don't think it will forever. That is not a belief system, just optimism, so don't try to built the KJ case that we just have another belief system the same as creationists.
[b]Didn't you read the last post? Evolution has nothing to say about the actual origin of life.
Sorry, but I'm not going to buy that. Either you have a complete working model or you don't. If it makes you feel better about your beliefs to say that I'm not going to worry about a complete picture, then that's up to you. But all you are doing is making yourself feel better about ignoring certain things.[/b]
Here is the difference between creationists religious stance and real science: Science can and does change its collective opinion, creationists cannot change, always stuck to the same boring tale, of which there are thousands, yours coming not from christianity or even Judaism, but from something thousands of years older, Zoroastrianism. Yet in spite of thousands of years of progressively more complex science which has changed hundreds of times over that period of time, constantly refining, looking back at the evidence, trying to make predictions that either pan out or not, if not, the scientists scratch their heads, roll up their collective sleeves and try something new, a new genius is born and everyone goes, AH, so that's it, then they start on a new level of the staircase of knowledge.
Meanwhile, starting all the way back at the original Zoroastrian 6 day story of creation, hear we are, 4,000 years later, not a word different.
Looks to me like you have a stuck repeating record with no way to advance other to say, look, here it is in this book, it is the truth, we just pity those who don't just automatically fall down on their knees and accep our faith. Looks like you are just forever stuck on freeze frame, never to advance.