07 Feb 19
@Duchess64
link to original paper: http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/2/eaav0961
The actual test:
1) Addition: Incorrect option in same numerical direction as correct option
Sample = 3, correct = 4, incorrect = 5
2) Addition: Incorrect option in opposite numerical direction as correct option
Sample = 3, correct = 4, incorrect = 2
3) Subtraction: Incorrect option in same numerical direction as correct option
Sample = 3, correct = 2, incorrect = 1
4) Subtraction: Incorrect option in opposite numerical direction as correct option
Sample = 3, correct = 2, incorrect = 4
It is really a sensational finding that bees can find the correct answer in statistical meaningful number of cases.
When I went to school abstract thought was only ascribed to mammals.
07 Feb 19
The post that was quoted here has been removedI am skeptical of the claim. They probably recognize shapes rather than actually adding and subtracting. Someone once had a horse he claimed could count. Horses are pretty smart, but it couldn't really count.
If a horse cannot count I doubt a bee can.
07 Feb 19
@metal-brain saidRead the paper, which is well written, I presume that an average educated Person can understand nearly everything.
I am skeptical of the claim. They probably recognize shapes rather than actually adding and subtracting. Someone once had a horse he claimed could count. Horses are pretty smart, but it couldn't really count.
If a horse cannot count I doubt a bee can.
They experimented with different shapes to Show the Independence of shape recognition.
If Bees can count or subtract is a question which is dependent on your Definition of counting or subtracting.
07 Feb 19
@Metal-Brain
Ponderable is right, the original paper is a hoot. Consider this couple of sentences:
Once bees had completed the training, there were four tests of 10 unreinforced choices. Between each of the four tests, there were 10 refresher reinforced choices to maintain bee motivation.I love the idea of unmotivated bees, that just can't be bothered any more and get all lethargic and want to sign on the dole.
The actual difficulty with this is that they had to add or subtract one, and the sample of dots was small enough that enumeration, rather than counting, can be in play. Counting is an algorithm, in enumeration one can just see how many dots there are without having to count. So I don't think there's strong evidence of abstract thinking here, in the sense that humans have a formal language with a set of rules for solving these problems, I think bees just use enumeration. Although it's interesting that they aren't just going for more and less, but do get the idea that there's a precise answer.
07 Feb 19
@ponderable saidIt was proven years ago that bees can not only add and subtract, but are also capable of exponential math. Food sources were placed at changing locations along a straight line and the bees were able to anticipate where the food would be the next day.
Read the paper, which is well written, I presume that an average educated Person can understand nearly everything.
They experimented with different shapes to Show the Independence of shape recognition.
If Bees can count or subtract is a question which is dependent on your Definition of counting or subtracting.
I don't know if this is true for ants, but apparently ants are able to find their nest after leaving by counting steps. Once they've reached the same number of steps back they move around in the same area until they find their nest. Some ants were selected and the length of their legs altered, then placed back where they were found. Ants that had tiny splints glued to their legs (making them longer) typically over-shot the nest, and ants that had their legs shortened (don't ask) would stop short of the nest before searching for it... both sets of ants couldn't find their nest because they were looking in the wrong area.
07 Feb 19
1 edit
@deepthought saidBees will always fail a math test because they never show their work. Coming up with a correct answer isn't enough, you must always show your work...
@Metal-Brain
Ponderable is right, the original paper is a hoot. Consider this couple of sentences:Once bees had completed the training, there were four tests of 10 unreinforced choices. Between each of the four tests, there were 10 refresher reinforced choices to maintain bee motivation.I love the idea of unmotivated bees, that just can't be bothered any ...[text shortened]... ng that they aren't just going for more and less, but do get the idea that there's a precise answer.
#$@%& math tests...
Phooey!
08 Feb 19
@deepthought saidRecognizing patterns is not counting. Bees probably have a very strong ability to recognize shapes to identify the type of flower. Remembering these flowers and where they are placed relative to one another probably helps them navigate through a field of flowers. Bees do not want to waste time visiting the same flowers.
@Metal-Brain
Ponderable is right, the original paper is a hoot. Consider this couple of sentences:Once bees had completed the training, there were four tests of 10 unreinforced choices. Between each of the four tests, there were 10 refresher reinforced choices to maintain bee motivation.I love the idea of unmotivated bees, that just can't be bothered any ...[text shortened]... ng that they aren't just going for more and less, but do get the idea that there's a precise answer.
There is little evidence they are doing basic math. Their ability to notice patterns and learn from them is rather remarkable, but this is not evidence of counting.
08 Feb 19
1 edit
The post that was quoted here has been removedThey (the math tests) all required us (the [math] students) to "show your work".
I at least had the sense to not show MORE work than was required, although at times I was sorely tempted to do so.
2x + 5 = 11
2x + 5 -5 = 11- 5
2x + 0 = 2x
2x = 11 - 5
2x = 6
6 = 1+1+1+1+1+1
2x/2 = (1+1+1+1+1+1)/2
1x/1 = x = (1+1+1+1+1+1)/2
(1+1+1+1+1+1)/2 = 1+1+1 = 3 = x