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@metal-brain saidTime dilation is ALREADY created by spacecraft, the folks on ISS are aging a tiny bit slower than us Earthbound. BECAUSE of the velocity of the ISS AND the presence in a lower gravity field changes time flow. BOTH effects do that.
You are just parroting deepthought's nonsense. Neither of you has shown that at all.
It is an effect of what? It is an effect of matter and nothing else. Time dilation created by a spacecraft? That would be impressive if it was possible. How do you create time dilation like that? You have been watching too many Stargate SG1 episodes.
I cannot make any sense of that ...[text shortened]... in a vain effort to save face. Truly pathetic. Greene was very clear, not vague. You are in denial.
Going fast causes time dilation.
That is a fact.
For instance, there are cosmic rays hitting Earth all the time. Because they are going near the speed of light, time slows down for those particles which would disintegrate before they reach the ground and turn into something else, some decay product. But because of this mass going say 99% of c, time extends the life of such particles and they actually hit Earth before decaying to its inevitable new form, whatever that is destined to be. If it were not for time dilation, those particles would decay before ever reaching the surface of our planet.
Any mass traveling in space at close to c also acquires mass, the change in mass is the same as the change in time flow. If it masses 2X what it would at zero velocity, time slows down also by the same factor, 2 to 1. Where say, 2 years would go by one Earth, only 1 year goes by for that mass and that would be an entire spacecraft full of people, ALL the atoms making up the people and the structure changes identically so nobody on board sees anything different inside the spacecraft.
This is a Wiki piece on GPS and time dilation inherent in its operation:
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System#Sagnac_distortion
GPS would be essentially worthless if time dilation and other effects were not factored in.
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@metal-brain saidOh my god; Didn't notice you made yet another stupid assertion until I read sonhouse's response to it but, you've done it again! You have shown yet again how ignorant you are of physics but have the delusion you understand it.
Time dilation created by a spacecraft? That would be impressive if it was possible. How do you create time dilation like that? You have been watching too many Stargate SG1 episodes.
When a spacecraft travels at none-zero speed relative to our frame of reference where we are stationary in our frame of reference then, in our frame of reference, time on that spacecraft will run at a slower speed i.e. time dilation will be caused by the spaceship travelling at non-zero speed because its engines accelerated it to that speed. So in that way time dilation CAN be created by a spacecraft (or anything else that can change its own speed using its own power). So you are wrong yet again and this isn't something from "Stargate SG1 episodes" but REAL science. If you understood the first thing about special relativity you would have known that.
@humy saidI think it has to do with his cult like attachment to his mentors, Greene and such.
Oh my god; Didn't notice you made yet another stupid assertion until I read sonhouse's response to it but, you've done it again! You have shown yet again how ignorant you are of physics but have the delusion you understand it.
When a spacecraft travels at none-zero speed relative to our frame of reference where we are stationary in our frame of reference then, in our frame of r ...[text shortened]... lativity you would know that. So this isn't something from "Stargate SG1 episodes" but REAL science.
He has obsessed with this time dilation effect and cannot admit there are two causes for time dilation, for him there can only be ONE time dilation effect.
@sonhouse saidWell, I tried, but making posts takes time and I'm not going to respond to his abuse any more. There's no point. I'd noticed that he seemed to be projecting his own posting habits onto the rest of us and pointed it out. It didn't have an effect other than to give him a new word to abuse us all with - you'll notice he's started accusing us all of projection. He's latched onto Feynman's statement about jargon, despite my post on the previous page where I tried to explain what time dilation is and why it's not a field with as little use of technical language as is possible, he accused me of using jargon to paper over my alleged ignorance. It's not entirely obvious to me that he knows what jargon is. His use of the word "jargon" and of the word "projection" just seems to indicate to me that when he is contradicted he finds a word to dismiss it with. As I've mentioned elsewhere I've become interested in psychology recently and, in that subject, have the words "Dunning Kruger" stamped on my forehead. But what this looks like comes under the general heading of narcissistic abuse. We have all been guilty of that to some extent, but with metalbrain it is on a grand scale. I suggest simply not feeding the troll.
I think it has to do with his cult like attachment to his mentors, Greene and such.
He has obsessed with this time dilation effect and cannot admit there are two causes for time dilation, for him there can only be ONE time dilation effect.
As an aside Greene is a string theorist. He spends his time thinking about quite abstract ideas and works in a formal language. It's a common problem for physicists to have trouble explaining physics to lay-audiences because we spend much of our time working in the formal language (i.e. algebra) and talking to colleagues who we can rely on to understand the jargon and the formal language. Greene has a difficult task trying to get across the concepts in a way non-physicists can follow. Posting here has helped me learn to break the ideas down into non-technical language. This is a major incentive for me to write content here.
On the actual point of contention, time dilation is a disagreement between two observers as to the difference in time between two events. The tendency of objects to fall comes from the gravitational connection which modifies Newton's second law of motion. The connection is given as a linear combination of derivatives of the metric field. The metric field can be used to calculate the time-dilation, provided one of the observers is asymptotic, stationary with respect to the central mass, and the metric is written in a coordinate system that is "natural" for that observer. If neither observer fulfills that criterion the calculation becomes more painful, but is still possible. I could try to explain how, but I'll simply refer you to the relevant Wikipedia pages, they do a reasonable job of explaining it. To avoid making confusing statements Greene will have simply cut all that out and talked about time dilation. This is what I suspect, but I really can't be bothered to watch his talk for the sake of understanding metalbrain's confusion as it uses up time and time is valuable.
@sonhouse saidThat is not what you were talking about. You were talking about spacecraft being propelled by time dilation, not experiencing a little.
Time dilation is ALREADY created by spacecraft, the folks on ISS are aging a tiny bit slower than us Earthbound. BECAUSE of the velocity of the ISS AND the presence in a lower gravity field changes time flow. BOTH effects do that.
Going fast causes time dilation.
That is a fact.
For instance, there are cosmic rays hitting Earth all the time. Because they are going near th ...[text shortened]... rtion
GPS would be essentially worthless if time dilation and other effects were not factored in.
More BS tactics in a feeble attempt to cover up making completely stupid statements that have no basis in reality. Stop making crap up inspired by sci-fi programs.
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@deepthought said"Greene has a difficult task trying to get across the concepts in a way non-physicists can follow."
Well, I tried, but making posts takes time and I'm not going to respond to his abuse any more. There's no point. I'd noticed that he seemed to be projecting his own posting habits onto the rest of us and pointed it out. It didn't have an effect other than to give him a new word to abuse us all with - you'll notice he's started accusing us all of projection. He's latch ...[text shortened]... s talk for the sake of understanding metalbrain's confusion as it uses up time and time is valuable.
More made up crap! Essentially what you are saying is that he teaches inaccurately to layman and accurately to more knowledgeable people.
If that is true you can easily explain the difference and why, but you have continually failed to do that. The reason is obvious, it isn't true.
Frame of reference is applicable to velocity induced time dilation. We are talking about gravitational time dilation, or I should say we are supposed to. I was specific about it and now you are purposely digressing into velocity in a deliberate attempt to obfuscate. That is what people do when they screw up big time and try to cover up that fact with BS.
I specifically said time dilation from matter, not from velocity.
BTW, pointing out someone is continually lying to try and prevent more of it is not abuse. You sound like duchess now. Everyone who disagrees with her is accused of being an abusive troll. She cannot give an example of me abusing her at all, but that is what narcissists do.
Calling others narcissists is your psychological projection. If people pointing out your lies is abusive then everyone on the planet is abusive. If you don't want to be called a bloody liar then don't lie!
Liars who are called on it are not victims. They bring it on themselves. When they blame others for it that is classic narcissism. You are a narcissist who projected it onto Assange earlier in this thread. Now you are projecting it onto me. That is because you know deep down inside you are a narcissist and you are disappointed in yourself for it, so much you need to prove to yourself you are not. Projecting that onto others is how you attempt to fool yourself into thinking you are not as bad as you know you are.
I'm not going to let you fool yourself anymore. You cannot lose your narcissism by calling others what you are. That just proves the narcissism.
Why do things fall? If Greene made an inaccurate statement correct it. That is all I asked. Instead of answering that question you deliberately digressed into velocity time dilation to avoid the cause of gravity altogether.
You know the difference between Special Relativity and General Relativity. Act like it. The only people you are fooling are your cheerleaders humy and sonhouse. Sonhouse thinks spaceships can be propelled by artificial time dilation.
Your cheerleaders are morons. Is that the kind of affirmation you are seeking? You must have an exceptional ability to fool yourself. You even project your projection onto others.
If you want to avoid criticism be honest. Nobody respects a deliberate liar and disrespect is not necessarily abuse. You have earned that disrespect because you don't respect others. If you want others to change you have to change yourself first. Own up to the fact you brought it onto yourself. Nobody made you lie and you keep doing it in a feeble attempt to cover your previous lies.
Who is to blame? Think long and hard about it before projecting it onto others. You do that far too much like your brother humy.
@metal-brain saidNo, not crap; Depending on which physics concepts (some are very easy while others extremely difficult), its often an extremely difficult if not impossible task. If you think all of it is easy its because you don't understand it but rather you merely have arrogant delusions you do understand it.
"Greene has a difficult task trying to get across the concepts in a way non-physicists can follow."
More made up crap!
@humy saidNope. Greene did what Einstein would do, explain it as simply as possible and that is exactly what he did.
No, not crap; Depending on which physics concepts (some are very easy while others extremely difficult), its often an extremely difficult if not impossible task. If you think all of it is easy its because you don't understand it but rather you merely have arrogant delusions you do understand it.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
-Albert Einstein
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@metal-brain saidApparently neither explained it "simple" enough so YOU would understand it. That's not a criticism of them but of you.
Nope. Greene did what Einstein would do, explain it as simply as possible and that is exactly what he did.
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http://www.briangreene.org/portfolio/light-falls/
Brian said "that tiny time warp is why things fall. Objects do not want to age. The math shows things are drawn to locations where time elapses more slowly."
Exact quote. There is nothing ambiguous or anything that could be interpreted differently than what I said all along. Time dilation is why things fall. Einstein knew that ever since he had his thought experiment now called the equivalence principal. That was over 100 years ago.
The reason is because of a combination of sloppy teaching, literal interpretation of that teaching and a loss of important history as to how Einstein's GR theory came about.
GR is the theory that time dilation causes things to fall. Einstein predicted that, not his field equations. The math came later.
As to the trolls who claim I am wrong all I can say is prove it. Anything less than that is not worth responding to. If they were smart enough to prove it they would be eager to do so.
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@metal-brain saidNo, he didn't. Just because Brian said it doesn't mean Einstein would have done or agreed.
http://www.briangreene.org/portfolio/light-falls/
Brian said "that tiny time warp is why things fall. Objects do not want to age. The math shows things are drawn to locations where time elapses more slowly."
Exact quote. There is nothing ambiguous or anything that could be interpreted differently than what I said all along. Time dilation is why things fall. Einstein knew that
Einstein knew that ever since he had his thought experiment now called the equivalence principal.
If you look up the equivalence principle the term "time dilation" isn't even mentioned;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle
So you just making crap up again.
@humy saidAbout what I'd expect from wikicrap.
No, he didn't. Just because Brian said it doesn't mean Einstein would have done or agreed.Einstein knew that ever since he had his thought experiment now called the equivalence principal.
If you look up the equivalence principle the term "time dilation" isn't even mentioned;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle
So you just making crap up again.
@metal-brain saidTake a look at this brief talk about time dilation:
About what I'd expect from wikicrap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcvq1DAM-DE
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@sonhouse saidI just watched it.
Take a look at this brief talk about time dilation:
[youtube]G-R8LGy-OVs[/youtube]
It explains that part of special relativity about time dilation.
About two-thirds in and onwards, it explains with the help of showing spaceships how time dilation occurs with a moving spaceship relative to a stationary one.
In other words, it explains how time dilation can be created by a spacecraft... And yet note how metalbrain says that's impossible and that we have "been watching too many Stargate SG1 episodes" by suggesting that could happen! That shows how stupid he is! He doesn't even get he is denying known special relativity by saying that! And no gravity involved with that cause of time dilation thus proving you can have time dilation WITHOUT gravity involved, which disproves his assertion that time dilation IS gravity. So he is wrong on BOTH accounts there.
Of course, a layperson doesn't need to watch that video in particular to have all that explained to him; Wiki does a perfectly good job of it if only he would ever bother to read it.