Are most scientists sniveling fearful conformists?

@Metal-Brain
No, not all but far too many to make progress in a respectable time. It has been that way all through history and doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon.
It is a pity really

@metal-brain said
I know. Not that it means anything. Were you going somewhere with this?

I've said all I am going to say on this, two separate sets of physics causes the same thing so that cannot be the causative agent, time dilation is an effect not a cause because time dilation does not cause you to go fast and time dilation does not cause matter to bunch up together.
To conflate the two together you have to be saying time dilation causes mass but that is clearly not the case. Therefore, time dilation is an effect not a cause.

@sonhouse said
I've said all I am going to say on this, two separate sets of physics causes the same thing so that cannot be the causative agent, time dilation is an effect not a cause because time dilation does not cause you to go fast and time dilation does not cause matter to bunch up together.
To conflate the two together you have to be saying time dilation causes mass but that is clearly not the case. Therefore, time dilation is an effect not a cause.

Separate matter time dilation from velocity time dilation and you can separate the different cause and effects. They are the opposite. That is the whole basis of the equivalence principal. Nobody claimed matter time dilation and velocity time dilation have to have the same cause and effect. Einstein certainly never did. You are going down a dead end road trying to prove an irrelevancy. Who said they cannot be opposite cause and effects? False assumption!

@metal-brain said
Separate matter time dilation from velocity time dilation and you can separate the different cause and effects. They are the opposite. That is the whole basis of the equivalence principal. Nobody claimed matter time dilation and velocity time dilation have to have the same cause and effect. Einstein certainly never did. You are going down a dead end road trying to prove an irrelevancy. Who said they cannot be opposite cause and effects? False assumption!

You are proving my point. Opposite effects means it is not fundamental. Something else is happening to CAUSE time warps and a time warp is a time warp, it is the same thing no matter if you go into a deep gravity well or go fast, it is still time dilation no matter what you think you are saying.

@sonhouse said
You are proving my point. Opposite effects means it is not fundamental. Something else is happening to CAUSE time warps and a time warp is a time warp, it is the same thing no matter if you go into a deep gravity well or go fast, it is still time dilation no matter what you think you are saying.

Now you have to explain what "something else" is.

Electricity causes magnetism. You can get the opposite effect from that too. Does that mean electricity does not cause magnetism? No! It does.

Pointing out an opposite effect and claiming it proves a statement wrong is faulty logic. You know electricity causes magnetism. WTF are you thinking??????

Admit showing an opposite effect does not prove my statement wrong, then we can talk.

@metal-brain said
Now you have to explain what "something else" is.

Electricity causes magnetism. You can get the opposite effect from that too. Does that mean electricity does not cause magnetism? No! It does.

Pointing out an opposite effect and claiming it proves a statement wrong is faulty logic. You know electricity causes magnetism. WTF are you thinking??????

Admit showing an opposite effect does not prove my statement wrong, then we can talk.

Talk. TALK? You want to run a rant not a discussion. Gee, I wonder why they call it 'electromagnetism'? Moving magnets near a conductor causes electric flow too and moving a conductor near a magnet causes the same thing.
So what. That is not as fundamental an effect as time dilation, time warp or whatever you want to call it, coming from going fast or going deep into a gravity field is not the same thing as electromagnetic force which is just a two headed coin of a fundamentally conjoined force.
In order to make GPS work well, both time changes have to be accounted for in the physics of the GPS system. If we only took into account one of those time effects, GPS would not be as accurate as a map.

@sonhouse said
Talk. TALK? You want to run a rant not a discussion. Gee, I wonder why they call it 'electromagnetism'? Moving magnets near a conductor causes electric flow too and moving a conductor near a magnet causes the same thing.
So what. That is not as fundamental an effect as time dilation, time warp or whatever you want to call it, coming from going fast or going deep into a gra ...[text shortened]... stem. If we only took into account one of those time effects, GPS would not be as accurate as a map.

I proved your logic is deeply flawed so now you call it a rant? You are in denial of basic science to justify your dogmatic avoidance of facts.

By your logic the reverse effect of magnetism causing electricity proves electricity does not cause magnetism.

"That is not as fundamental an effect as time dilation, time warp or whatever you want to call it"

Now you are making stuff up. That doesn't even make sense.
I proved you wrong. Since deepthought brought it up first I proved him wrong again. You three group think buddies need to admit you were wrong to begin with so you don't keep getting all of your irrelevant arguments being proven wrong over and over again.

Don't you three guys get tired of the constant embarrassment of being wrong over and over again? All you had to do is admit you were wrong once to avoid being proven wrong multiple times. Denying reality is not fooling anyone here. You can deny being wrong all you want, it is apparent to everyone.

@sonhouse said
Talk. TALK? You want to run a rant not a discussion. Gee, I wonder why they call it 'electromagnetism'? Moving magnets near a conductor causes electric flow too and moving a conductor near a magnet causes the same thing.
So what. That is not as fundamental an effect as time dilation, time warp or whatever you want to call it, coming from going fast or going deep into a gra ...[text shortened]... stem. If we only took into account one of those time effects, GPS would not be as accurate as a map.

Electromagnetic induction is no more or less "fundamental" than time dilation effects in general relativity.

@deepthought said
Electromagnetic induction is no more or less "fundamental" than time dilation effects in general relativity.

Then you see your bringing up the equivalence principal didn't prove me wrong at all, right? All that time wasted on an irrelevancy.
You should not be skeptical that Greene was talking about time dilation. He described it perfectly and if you understood Einstein's field equations you would know time dilation is the foundation of GR.
You should be skeptical of people claiming they know what a black hole is. I watched Nova last night and the assertion was made that it is an infinitesimally small point in space and it is a hole in the fabric of space. The narrator also said nobody knows what is in a black hole because it is a mystery. Notice the contradiction.
How does anyone know a black hole is not a neutron star with too much gravity for light to escape? Why did the narrator claim it was a hole? Surely she wasn't being literal, was she? They even brought up the prison in India called the black hole. Were they entertaining the possibility they were named after a prison? I can't think of any other reason they would bring it up.

I seems things are often taken too literally in science. A black hole is now an actual hole in space? Is that how god plays golf? LOL!

If you are going to claim someone is using terms too loosely and misleading people there are plenty of people that deserve it, but not Greene. There is nothing inaccurate about what he said except the word "mostly". If there is another reason he should have stated it because I cannot think of one.

There was another contradiction in last night's Nova. She implied gravity is not a force. Gravity is commonly called the "weak force" by physicists. Time dilation from matter causes that force. That is why Greene brought up the proper time at his head being different than the proper time at his feet. That is the unquestionable perfect description of time dilation.

Nobody is saying the bending of space. Time is included for a reason. You cannot have the bending of space without time dilation from matter. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Hence the term spacetime.

Time dilation and the bending of spacetime is the same thing.

@metal-brain said
Then you see your bringing up the equivalence principal didn't prove me wrong at all, right? All that time wasted on an irrelevancy.
You should not be skeptical that Greene was talking about time dilation. He described it perfectly and if you understood Einstein's field equations you would know time dilation is the foundation of GR.
You should be skeptical of people cl ...[text shortened]... POSSIBLE. Hence the term spacetime.

Time dilation and the bending of spacetime is the same thing.

Popular science programs make mistakes all over the place. You need to distinguish between theoretical models, like the Schwartzschild and Kerr solutions to the Einstein Field equations which do predict singularities at the centre of the black hole and whatever the ultra dense objects that actually exist at the centres of galaxies, whose interiors we have no access to. We'd expect quantum effects to be important inside black holes and in the absence of a theory of quantum gravity there's a lot of don't know.

@deepthought said
Popular science programs make mistakes all over the place. You need to distinguish between theoretical models, like the Schwartzschild and Kerr solutions to the Einstein Field equations which do predict singularities at the centre of the black hole and whatever the ultra dense objects that actually exist at the centres of galaxies, whose interiors we have no access to. ...[text shortened]... nt inside black holes and in the absence of a theory of quantum gravity there's a lot of don't know.

Singularities? How do you know they exist? You cannot see them. How do you know what is there?

If I say a black hole is just a huge neutron star how do you know I am wrong? You have no evidence either way. You merely have faith in theoretical guesses.

I predict you will have a hemorrhoid. Have faith in my prediction.

@metal-brain said
Singularities? How do you know they exist? You cannot see them. How do you know what is there?

If I say a black hole is just a huge neutron star how do you know I am wrong? You have no evidence either way. You merely have faith in theoretical guesses.

I predict you will have a hemorrhoid. Have faith in my prediction.

I'll draw your attention to the emphasis in my previous post concerning distinguishing between theoretical predictions and what actually exists.

@deepthought said
I'll draw your attention to the emphasis in my previous post concerning distinguishing between theoretical predictions and what actually exists.

In my POV the idea of an infinite density is just our science not understanding the subject deeply enough. I think we will find there is no such thing as an infinite density because our present day science is just not advanced enough to figure out what is really happening.
I think they will eventually show things crunch down in a black hole just so far and some new unknown physics keeps that mass from going any further than some maximum density.
That is just my POV obviously and I could be wrong but that is what I think now.