1. Subscribersonhouse
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    29 Jun '13 12:38
    http://phys.org/news/2013-06-mimicking-cells-ribosomes.html

    The creationists will have a fit when mankind makes life from scratch.
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    29 Jun '13 13:231 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    http://phys.org/news/2013-06-mimicking-cells-ribosomes.html

    The creationists will have a fit when mankind makes life from scratch.
    No they will just idiotically claim that all it proves is that you need intelligence to create life.

    They will (as ever) simply move the goal posts.

    EDIT: Interesting story though.
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    30 Jun '13 07:479 edits
    I have just read the link and they have made perfectly functional ribosomes from scratch. I am surprised that science as progressed enough already that they have already been able to make such an extremely complex organic structure and made it perfectly fully functional! Even with current science, that certainly could not have been an easy thing to do!
    If they can make something as difficult and complex as perfectly functional ribosome from scratch then surely it is just a matter of time before they can make each and every complex part of a living cell and then put those parts together to make a perfectly functional living cell.

    After science creates a perfectly functional living cell, further advances in science can enable them to design and create new species that would benefit humanity esp new species of food plants.
    And, one day, it would be used to produce new synthetic bodies in human form to replace our own bodies but which would be totally disease resistant and either would never age or could easily be replaced if they did. Just think, each time your body gets worn out and is just about had it, you would just be given a new one that was grown in a lab (but without a brain) especially for you just as you ordered and the old one, including its head (with the brain removed for transplant), would be chucked down the throat of a giant living artificial stomach to convert it into biofuel and fertilizers.
  4. Subscribersonhouse
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    30 Jun '13 16:18
    Originally posted by humy
    I have just read the link and they have made perfectly functional ribosomes from scratch. I am surprised that science as progressed enough already that they have already been able to make such an extremely complex organic structure and made it perfectly fully functional! Even with current science, that certainly could not have been an easy thing to do! ...[text shortened]... down the throat of a giant living artificial stomach to convert it into biofuel and fertilizers.
    Of course that would put a strain on an already bloated human population so when that comes about there will be new rules and laws respecting the creation of new babies vs the expanded lifespan of the rebuilt humans. Maybe they would create a system where the retreads are told to start over on Mars or Europa, thus relieving the population stress.
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    30 Jun '13 19:04
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    http://phys.org/news/2013-06-mimicking-cells-ribosomes.html

    The creationists will have a fit when mankind makes life from scratch.
    Why?
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    30 Jun '13 19:175 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Why?
    Many albeit not all creationists claim and believe that it is impossible for us humans to ever design life from scratch because they believe that life is too complex to be made that way and only a god with infinite intelligence can make life.
    But I think when we do make life from scratch, the typical response from such a creationist would either be denial, with him claiming that it is all a massive big lie from atheists and he would deny or ignore all the evidence for it, or, after the initial shock, instead of learning something from the experience (like how delusional he is and he really should alter his belief-forming process and should try for now on use untwisted flawless logic in that process), he would merely just accept and accommodate this fact into his religious dogma and perhaps even pretend he never denied the possibility and even convince himself he never did.
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    30 Jun '13 19:42
    Originally posted by humy
    Many albeit not all creationists claim and believe that it is impossible for us humans to ever design life from scratch because they believe that life is too complex to be made that way and only a god with infinite intelligence can make life.
    But I think when we do make life from scratch, the typical response from such a creationist would either be denial, wit ...[text shortened]... and perhaps even pretend he never denied the possibility and even convince himself he never did.
    I don't make that claim.

    Simply because something can happen, it doesn't mean it must happen.

    If God created the universe by way of 'natural' means when He created, does that negate the fact that God created both the universe and how it works?
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    30 Jun '13 20:072 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I don't make that claim.

    Simply because something can happen, it doesn't mean it must happen.

    If God created the universe by way of 'natural' means when He created, does that negate the fact that God created both the universe and how it works?
    If God created the universe by way of 'natural' means when He created, does that negate the fact that God created both the universe and how it works?

    It is obviously not a “fact” that “ God created both the universe and how it works” so whatever you mean by “'natural' means “ doesn't logically apply here.
    That's a bit like saying:
    “humans not being able to fly does not negate the fact that all humans have invisible supernatural feathered wings”.
    -unless you can prove that “ God created both the universe and how it works” to make that a “fact”?
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    30 Jun '13 20:10
    Originally posted by humy
    If God created the universe by way of 'natural' means when He created, does that negate the [b]fact that God created both the universe and how it works?

    It is obviously not a “fact” that “ God created both the universe and how it works” so whatever you mean by “'natural' means “ doesn't logically apply here.
    It is a bit like s ...[text shortened]... prove that “ God created both the universe and how it works” to make that a “fact”?[/b]
    I never said that it is a fact. I'm just saying that if it is a fact, then Science can neither prove it nor disprove it.

    Notice I started out the statement with an 'If' which means let's assume that it is true. If we assume that it is true, then we treat what we assume is true as fact.

    Hope this little intellectual exercise is a little easier to understand after the explanation.
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    30 Jun '13 20:155 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I never said that it is a fact. I'm just saying that if it is a fact, then Science can neither prove it nor disprove it.

    Notice I started out the statement with an 'If' which means let's assume that it is true. If we assume that it is true, then we treat what we assume is true as fact.

    Hope this little intellectual exercise is a little easier to understand after the explanation.
    My apology; somehow read that too fast and skipped the "if".
    Still, I think I should still point out that no person in this age of science and reason can rationally seriously think that "God created the universe".
    And Many albeit not all creationists DO claim and believe that it is impossible for us humans to ever design life from scratch -some are on these forums. When we do finally create life from scratch, it could be amusing just for a short while to see what they have to say about that. I hope I will be still alive when that happens just so that I can see their reaction and hopefully just before they quickly move the goal posts.
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    30 Jun '13 20:241 edit
    Originally posted by humy
    My apology; somehow read that too fast and skipped the "if".
    Still, I think I should still point out that no person in this age of science and reason can rationally seriously think that "God created the universe".
    And Many albeit not all creationists DO claim and believe that it is impossible for us humans to ever design life from scratch.
    I can see your point of view, if you make the same assumption most people around you are making. As long as enough of us think that our assumption is truth, then anyone who disagrees must be simply ignorant. As you know, our assumption must be absolutely true, otherwise why would most of us believe it?

    When we do finally create life from scratch, it could be amusing just for a short while to see what they have to say about that. I hope I will be still alive when that happens just so that I can see their reaction and hopefully just before they quickly move the goal posts.

    I see you have faith that it will happen, even if it happens after you die.
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    30 Jun '13 20:352 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I can see your point of view, if you make the same assumption most people around you are making. As long as enough of us think that our assumption is truth, then anyone who disagrees must be simply ignorant. As you know, our assumption must be absolutely true, otherwise why would most of us believe it?

    [b]When we do finally create life from scratch, it c ...[text shortened]... e goal posts.


    I see you have faith that it will happen, even if it happens after you die.[/b]
    I can see your point of view, if you make the same assumption most people around you are making. As long as enough of us think that our assumption is truth, then anyone who disagrees must be simply ignorant. As you know, our assumption must be absolutely true, otherwise why would most of us believe it?


    No, that is NOT my reasoning. The reason why I don't believe there is a god is the same reason why I don't believe there is a supernatural teacup orbiting Mars; in both cases the hypothesis cannot be disproved but it is very stupid to believe something just because it cannot be disproved! And, using the principle of Occam's razor combined with it is not rational to believe something unless it is falsifiable, the default assumption in both cases should be it is false because there is a vanishing small chance of it being true. You can call that an 'assumption' if you like but it doesn't go into the same category of 'assumption' of believing in gods because it is an extremely well qualified 'assumption' that is the only one any rational person can make.

    I see you have faith that it will happen, even if it happens after you die.

    it is not “faith” but reason. What barrier will stop them doing it? They have already made made complex and perfectly functional ribosomes from scratch despite how hard that must be!
    So what is now stopping them eventually making every other complex component of a living cell and then putting all those components together to make a whole perfectly functional cell?
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    30 Jun '13 20:38
    Originally posted by humy
    No, that is NOT my reasoning. The reason why I don't believe there is a god is the same reason why I don't believe there is a supernatural teacup orbiting Mars; in both cases the hypothesis cannot be disproved but it is very stupid to believe something just because it cannot be disproved! And, using the principle of Occam's razor combined with it is not rationa ...[text shortened]... tremely well qualified 'assumption' that is the only one any rational person can make.
    Any assumption that is different from the one we personally hold is 'very stupid to believe'. If it wasn't, then I'd believe it!

    It's a story played out over and over again on the internet. Two sides have a disagreement and everyone who agrees with your position will tell you that you destroyed the other person in the 'debate'.

    Everyone is right in his or her own mind. Anyone who disagrees is a moron!
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    30 Jun '13 20:444 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Any assumption that is different from the one we personally hold is 'very stupid to believe'. If it wasn't, then I'd believe it!

    It's a story played out over and over again on the internet. Two sides have a disagreement and everyone who agrees with your position will tell you that you destroyed the other person in the 'debate'.

    Everyone is right in his or her own mind. Anyone who disagrees is a moron!
    yes, but that doesn't stop the possibility of one side being right and the other moronic. If there is a side that is right, it probably be a side that uses flawless reason and that flawless reasoning should involve the use of the principle of Occam's razor combined with it is not rational to believe something unless it is falsifiable except those first principles that are essential to make to make none trivial models of reality (such as the principle of induction and the assumption that the world you see is real and not all just a dream etc) -this has been independently worked out by many good philosophers (including Bertrand Russell) and many other intelligent people.
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    30 Jun '13 20:56
    Originally posted by humy
    yes, but that doesn't stop the possibility of one side being right and the other moronic. If there is a side that is right, it probably be a side that uses flawless reason and that flawless reasoning should involve the use of the principle of Occam's razor combined with it is not rational to believe something unless it is falsifiable except those first principl ...[text shortened]... has been independently worked out by many good philosophers and many other intelligent people.
    No, it doesn't negate the possibility. It is possible that one side is right or it is possible that both sides could be wrong.

    We just happend to know that our side is right because we know that we are right!

    Or we could know that what we believe is what we believe and that other people believe something different and in the end the truth will reveal itself.

    I choose to accept the second of the two options.
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