Evolution and bats???

Originally posted by mtthw
It doesn't need to be perfect to be useful. It just needs to be ever so slightly advantageous. The precursors of bats could well have relied on sight, with better hearing giving them a small benefit.

The thing to remember is that the timescales are so massive that even very small advantages can lead to big changes over time.

But how when an animals enviroment starts to change even so very slightly due to climate change or whatever, know that sometime in the distant future, it will need to fly or swim or need to feed differently then it does now? Even without the knowledge of this far distant need, what keeps it from changing it's physicle apperance in the wrong direction?
Now this is a creature that doesn't not know what the future will be like tomorrow much less 10K years from now. So at this point in time what could possible trigger this animal to start making the changes needed to be ready for that time in the future as it may take all the thousands of years to be equiped to live at that time?

Check this out!
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22blind%20boy%22%20%22echo%20location%22%20click&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Check this out!
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22blind%20boy%22%20%22echo%20location%22%20click&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

I have seen that it it does prove that any life form can adapt with what they all ready have. I'm sure a few of us could do this if presented with that opportunity because it obviously can be done. But he's still that same human and didn't evolve into something else.
So this still does nothing to show how an animal can change it's shape or functions to fit something new many thousands of years in the future that it has no knowledge of.

Originally posted by galveston75
I have seen that it it does prove that any life form can adapt with what they all ready have. I'm sure a few of us could do this if presented with that opportunity because it obviously can be done. But he's still that same human and didn't evolve into something else.
So this still does nothing to show how an animal can change it's shape or functions to fit something new many thousands of years in the future that it has no knowledge of.

How do you get from 0 to 1? By the axiom of choice you to take the finite step from 0 to 1 or you could count by 1/2,1/4,1/6,...ect, this is how we have found it advantageous to quantify the universe as a species. But also, it is logically impossible to go from 0 to 1 counting by the smallest values( ie 1/infinity), because there are an infinite number of values between 0 and 1. so this shows that there are different sizes of infinity. if you were going to count from 0 to infinity you could do it an infinite number of ways. I'm going to do it right now using one finite step. 0,infinity...done. Everything seems to be very fuzzy and not comprehensibe when dealing with infinity. This is how nature operates, with infinite, not finite(in my infinitely small opinion).

Originally posted by mtthw
It doesn't need to be perfect to be useful. It just needs to be ever so slightly advantageous. The precursors of bats could well have relied on sight, with better hearing giving them a small benefit.

The thing to remember is that the timescales are so massive that even very small advantages can lead to big changes over time.

But again, how without some for-knowledge of future events would any animal by accident know how to start changing itself to what it will need thousands of years from now? And even if it could think in future terms, how could it make the changes happen? Can humans make changes to our bodies knowing that the earth will be hotter or colder in the future? I can't seem to get an answer other then "it just happens."

bats are a hybrid of mammals (platypus) and birds.

it can fly, it produce milk and it has fur

/discussion

Originally posted by galveston75
So this still does nothing to show how an animal can change it's shape or functions to fit something new many thousands of years in the future that it has no knowledge of.

There is no memory that holds information what will happen in the future, you already know that, don't you? You start with a detail that is obvious for anyone knowing the principle of evolution.

I don't much about the bats, so I don't answer that specific question. So I take another example, with the same principle.

Suppose the saltyness in the oceans will raise, for some reasons, in the future, like in 100k years, to the level so a specific organism in the sea water cannot survive. Noone know this in advance, no information about this is possible for the organism, nor for its individuals. If no evolution occurs, this specie of this organism will die. 100k years from now, noone will survive due to raised salinity.

Are we okay by this scenario? Have you understood what I'm saying so far, Galvestone? Do we agree that this scenario is a good paralel to the bat question?

If you want me to answer your question, you must be openminded and accept that there is an answer, and there is no need for a divine intervention here. Evolution can actually work. No memory for future events are needed.

If you don't want me to continue, just say that evolution is crap, and you will never accept an answer that involves any trace of evolution. If you don't want an answer, just dissect everything I write and dismiss the thought of evolution only because I don't explain everything by its minute detail.

Okay, what do you want me to do?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
There is no memory that holds information what will happen in the future, you already know that, don't you? You start with a detail that is obvious for anyone knowing the principle of evolution.

I don't much about the bats, so I don't answer that specific question. So I take another example, with the same principle.

Suppose the saltyness in the ocea ...[text shortened]... ause I don't explain everything by its minute detail.

Okay, what do you want me to do?

No I'm not looking for minute details. I'm looking for the big pieces of evidence that just aren't there. I ask for them but I'm never shown anything that proves that evolution is no more then a theory. Show me what you think is proof....

Well your scenorio actually hurts evolution because evolution states that given time, life will change to live in any enviroment. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by galveston75
No I'm not looking for minute details. I'm looking for the big pieces of evidence that just aren't there. I ask for them but I'm never shown anything that proves that evolution is no more then a theory. Show me what you think is proof....

Well your scenorio actually hurts evolution because evolution states that given time, life will change to live in any enviroment. Am I wrong?

Then I don't think you really are interested then? You've made up your mind? That's it?

I was ready to explain somthings to you, but you reject my efforts. Then I don't care. If you don't wanna know, then you don't wanna know.

Yeah, you're a creationist, I forgot... 😞

Originally posted by galveston75
But again, how without some for-knowledge of future events would any animal by accident know how to start changing itself to what it will need thousands of years from now? And even if it could think in future terms, how could it make the changes happen? Can humans make changes to our bodies knowing that the earth will be hotter or colder in the future? I can't seem to get an answer other then "it just happens."

The answer is simple and straight forward. No animal 'knows' what it will need in the future and no such forethought is involved in evolution.

Humans could change their bodies to suit a different environment (just as we have changed domesticated animals) by selective breeding.

Originally posted by galveston75
No I'm not looking for minute details. I'm looking for the big pieces of evidence that just aren't there.

You are looking in the wrong places because you don't yet understand the basics of the theory.

Well your scenorio actually hurts evolution because evolution states that given time, life will change to live in any enviroment. Am I wrong?
Live can change to suit an environment but it is the environment that changes first, not life. Life does not plan ahead - nor does it need to.
Not all species adapt - that is why extinction takes place (more often than not).

Originally posted by twhitehead
The answer is simple and straight forward. No animal 'knows' what it will need in the future and no such forethought is involved in evolution.

Humans could change their bodies to suit a different environment (just as we have changed domesticated animals) by selective breeding.

He doesn't want to know. He's a full grown creationist!
He invent the most proposterous thing possible, like a species having memory from the future, rediculous!, and take this as a proof that evolution is wrong.

He just doesn't want to know the answer of his question.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Then I don't think you really are interested then? You've made up your mind? That's it?

I was ready to explain somthings to you, but you reject my efforts. Then I don't care. If you don't wanna know, then you don't wanna know.

Yeah, you're a creationist, I forgot... 😞

Did I say I reject your or anyones efforts? I said no one has shown me anything to prove evolution. I don't need long complicated answers, just some simple proof is all I ask for.
It would seem that if there is this large amount of proof that makes it a fact, then it should be easy to bring forth....

Originally posted by twhitehead
The answer is simple and straight forward. No animal 'knows' what it will need in the future and no such forethought is involved in evolution.

Humans could change their bodies to suit a different environment (just as we have changed domesticated animals) by selective breeding.

But a cow that has been altered to produce more meat...is still a cow. Lets see humans alter that cow to grow gills so it can live underwater?

Originally posted by galveston75
Did I say I reject your or anyones efforts? I said no one has shown me anything to prove evolution. I don't need long complicated answers, just some simple proof is all I ask for.
It would seem that if there is this large amount of proof that makes it a fact, then it should be easy to bring forth....

You seem to be stuck in your creational theories. Open your mind and learn gerneral things before you go an ask specific stuff you're not able to understand anyway.

Have you followed my advice? Go and read same basic books about evolution? No? Afraid that they would change your opinion about the matter?

Are you really interested to know? I don't think so.