1. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    01 Nov '09 00:59
    Just wondering how some animals such as bats evolved with echo location? When did it start to be used by them?
  2. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    01 Nov '09 19:20
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Just wondering how some animals such as bats evolved with echo location? When did it start to be used by them?
    they evolved all the way up to batman, he is the pinnacle of evolutionary achievement.
  3. Standard memberpatauro
    Patricia
    Joined
    25 Sep '06
    Moves
    14447
    01 Nov '09 22:19
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    they evolved all the way up to batman, he is the pinnacle of evolutionary achievement.
    Then altruism is his selfish mene?
  4. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    02 Nov '09 00:18
    Originally posted by patauro
    Then altruism is his selfish mene?
    im sorry i barely understood a word of that 🙂
  5. The Smoke
    Joined
    24 Feb '08
    Moves
    15284
    03 Nov '09 16:49
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    im sorry i barely understood a word of that 🙂
    I'm guessing that patauro was referring to Richard Dawkins' concept of a "selfish gene"
  6. Standard memberpatauro
    Patricia
    Joined
    25 Sep '06
    Moves
    14447
    03 Nov '09 21:33
    I would assume that bats started with some primative form of EL and as its use ensured survival became more acute as we see it presently. Much the same way sight evolved from primitative light sensative cells that recognized only dark/brighter than dark.
  7. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    03 Nov '09 22:54
    Originally posted by patauro
    I would assume that bats started with some primative form of EL and as its use ensured survival became more acute as we see it presently. Much the same way sight evolved from primitative light sensative cells that recognized only dark/brighter than dark.
    But how would this EL or light sensitive cells ever start? And are there any fossils that show this progressiveness happening?
  8. Joined
    07 Sep '05
    Moves
    35068
    04 Nov '09 10:23
    Originally posted by galveston75
    But how would this EL or light sensitive cells ever start? And are there any fossils that show this progressiveness happening?
    Well, even humans have a basic form - listen to echos in a cave and if you're careful you can tell when walls are close. Now just slowly amp up the sensitivity. It's just a specialised form of hearing.

    No idea about the fossil record, but my guess would be that the organs are too delicate to get a good enough fossil to be able to detect that sort of thing.
  9. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    04 Nov '09 20:32
    Originally posted by mtthw
    Well, even humans have a basic form - listen to echos in a cave and if you're careful you can tell when walls are close. Now just slowly amp up the sensitivity. It's just a specialised form of hearing.

    No idea about the fossil record, but my guess would be that the organs are too delicate to get a good enough fossil to be able to detect that sort of thing.
    But why would some ancester of the bat ever have need to develope such a hunting technic? As long as this would have taken to perfect, how would they survive in the meantime?
  10. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    05 Nov '09 07:14
    Originally posted by galveston75
    But why would some ancester of the bat ever have need to develope such a hunting technic? As long as this would have taken to perfect, how would they survive in the meantime?
    If you know anything about evolution, that question would be totally meaningless.
  11. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    05 Nov '09 22:33
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    If you know anything about evolution, that question would be totally meaningless.
    Maybe I'm trying to learn if there are any answers that make sence? So far none have...
  12. Standard memberpatauro
    Patricia
    Joined
    25 Sep '06
    Moves
    14447
    06 Nov '09 01:10
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Maybe I'm trying to learn if there are any answers that make sence? So far none have...
    I have to ask, why haven't ANY of the above answers made ANY sence?
  13. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    06 Nov '09 02:34
    Originally posted by patauro
    I have to ask, why haven't ANY of the above answers made ANY sence?
    Which one? Let me paint a picture of how this scenario sounds.
    There is an early ground dwelling pre-bat like creature that probably eats insects as does other creatures like himself. But for some reason his food source is getting harder and harder to find. So somehow this bat like creature without any help from any outside intelligent help, starts to grow winglike looking feet which at this point in the thousands of years of what it would take to become fully functional wings, are still useless. And on top of that this creature knows that someday in that distant thousands of years, it will be flying and unlike birds who do just fine feeding in daylight, will feed at night and because of that it will need to have a very sophisticated echo location to find those insects.
    So this little creature without any knowledge of the future and if it's plans will be correct in guessing just exactly what it will need then to work, somehow starts changing it's body shape and functions.
    So hopefully it's changing in the right direction and can survive those thousands of years with non functional wings or feet and whistles that he's sending out while practicing that echo thingy. I just hope he can find food while he's making these changes since at some point he'll be something in between that probably won't be very efficent at any form of hunting. Oh yeah..both the females and males have to do this with perfect timing.
    So you see my problem. Guessing and theorising and factly saying that things like this DID happen, does nothing to prove it.
    All I want to see is proof that this could happen by chance............ Seriously.
  14. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    06 Nov '09 04:46
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Maybe I'm trying to learn if there are any answers that make sence? So far none have...
    An advice - start from the basics. Don't use any creationists books as your textbooks for learning, that's futile. Go and read som evolution books that starts from the very beginning. It's lots of those books out there, in libraries and bookstores.

    When you follow this advice then it all makes sense, and then you know why the questions you ask doesn't make sense, you don't learn anything from it, when so much basick knowledge lacks.

    Good luck with your studies! 🙂
  15. Joined
    07 Sep '05
    Moves
    35068
    06 Nov '09 10:16
    Originally posted by galveston75
    But why would some ancester of the bat ever have need to develope such a hunting technic? As long as this would have taken to perfect, how would they survive in the meantime?
    It doesn't need to be perfect to be useful. It just needs to be ever so slightly advantageous. The precursors of bats could well have relied on sight, with better hearing giving them a small benefit.

    The thing to remember is that the timescales are so massive that even very small advantages can lead to big changes over time.
Back to Top