03 Nov 09
Originally posted by patauroBut how would this EL or light sensitive cells ever start? And are there any fossils that show this progressiveness happening?
I would assume that bats started with some primative form of EL and as its use ensured survival became more acute as we see it presently. Much the same way sight evolved from primitative light sensative cells that recognized only dark/brighter than dark.
04 Nov 09
Originally posted by galveston75Well, even humans have a basic form - listen to echos in a cave and if you're careful you can tell when walls are close. Now just slowly amp up the sensitivity. It's just a specialised form of hearing.
But how would this EL or light sensitive cells ever start? And are there any fossils that show this progressiveness happening?
No idea about the fossil record, but my guess would be that the organs are too delicate to get a good enough fossil to be able to detect that sort of thing.
04 Nov 09
Originally posted by mtthwBut why would some ancester of the bat ever have need to develope such a hunting technic? As long as this would have taken to perfect, how would they survive in the meantime?
Well, even humans have a basic form - listen to echos in a cave and if you're careful you can tell when walls are close. Now just slowly amp up the sensitivity. It's just a specialised form of hearing.
No idea about the fossil record, but my guess would be that the organs are too delicate to get a good enough fossil to be able to detect that sort of thing.
05 Nov 09
Originally posted by galveston75If you know anything about evolution, that question would be totally meaningless.
But why would some ancester of the bat ever have need to develope such a hunting technic? As long as this would have taken to perfect, how would they survive in the meantime?
06 Nov 09
Originally posted by patauroWhich one? Let me paint a picture of how this scenario sounds.
I have to ask, why haven't ANY of the above answers made ANY sence?
There is an early ground dwelling pre-bat like creature that probably eats insects as does other creatures like himself. But for some reason his food source is getting harder and harder to find. So somehow this bat like creature without any help from any outside intelligent help, starts to grow winglike looking feet which at this point in the thousands of years of what it would take to become fully functional wings, are still useless. And on top of that this creature knows that someday in that distant thousands of years, it will be flying and unlike birds who do just fine feeding in daylight, will feed at night and because of that it will need to have a very sophisticated echo location to find those insects.
So this little creature without any knowledge of the future and if it's plans will be correct in guessing just exactly what it will need then to work, somehow starts changing it's body shape and functions.
So hopefully it's changing in the right direction and can survive those thousands of years with non functional wings or feet and whistles that he's sending out while practicing that echo thingy. I just hope he can find food while he's making these changes since at some point he'll be something in between that probably won't be very efficent at any form of hunting. Oh yeah..both the females and males have to do this with perfect timing.
So you see my problem. Guessing and theorising and factly saying that things like this DID happen, does nothing to prove it.
All I want to see is proof that this could happen by chance............ Seriously.
06 Nov 09
Originally posted by galveston75An advice - start from the basics. Don't use any creationists books as your textbooks for learning, that's futile. Go and read som evolution books that starts from the very beginning. It's lots of those books out there, in libraries and bookstores.
Maybe I'm trying to learn if there are any answers that make sence? So far none have...
When you follow this advice then it all makes sense, and then you know why the questions you ask doesn't make sense, you don't learn anything from it, when so much basick knowledge lacks.
Good luck with your studies! 🙂
06 Nov 09
Originally posted by galveston75It doesn't need to be perfect to be useful. It just needs to be ever so slightly advantageous. The precursors of bats could well have relied on sight, with better hearing giving them a small benefit.
But why would some ancester of the bat ever have need to develope such a hunting technic? As long as this would have taken to perfect, how would they survive in the meantime?
The thing to remember is that the timescales are so massive that even very small advantages can lead to big changes over time.