02 Jul '19 12:37>
@deepthought saidThe bending of space/time is time dilation. Do you dispute that?
Do you want to give a reference to the paper where Einstein says that time dilation causes gravity?
@deepthought saidThe bending of space/time is time dilation. Do you dispute that?
Do you want to give a reference to the paper where Einstein says that time dilation causes gravity?
@metal-brain saidI have two objections. The first we've covered ad nauseam. The second is that there are more degrees of freedom than that. For a simple model of a possible universe consider the product space RxS_3. The R is the time-like coordinate, S_3 is a three sphere. That has curvature everywhere, but any two stationary clocks will go at the same rate.
The bending of space/time is time dilation. Do you dispute that?
@sonhouse saidFor an even simpler geometrical construction consider a circle. It's got curvature equal to the inverse of its radius - by definition - and doesn't involve time at all.
@DeepThought
You are talking way over his head.
@deepthought saidActually I should make that a sphere for technical reasons. One dimensional spaces do not have intrinsic curvature.
For an even simpler geometrical construction consider a circle. It's got curvature equal to the inverse of its radius - by definition - and doesn't involve time at all.
@sonhouse saidImagine a graph of a function like x^2. Fit a circle into the minimum of the curve, the largest circle that one can snugly fit it has some radius r. The curvature is then 1/r. For a sphere the largest circles that fit into the sphere are the great circles so the curvature is just the inverse radius of the sphere. This is explained in the first section of the Wikipedia page on curvature.
@DeepThought
When you say inverse of radius are you talking about relating the radius to the slope of the curve of the circle or sphere? It looks to me like a large radius = smaller numbers which makes it sound like slope numbers.
@deepthought saidAgain, Curvature of space/time is just the inclusion of the other dimensions of space along with time. By saying time dilation causes gravity I am not omitting the other dimensions. You cannot have time dilation without the bending of space/time. By implying that it does, you are misleading everyone here.
I have two objections. The first we've covered ad nauseam. The second is that there are more degrees of freedom than that. For a simple model of a possible universe consider the product space RxS_3. The R is the time-like coordinate, S_3 is a three sphere. That has curvature everywhere, but any two stationary clocks will go at the same rate.
@sonhouse saidNo, he isn't.
@DeepThought
You are talking way over his head.
@deepthought saidDude, that is like saying electricity does not cause magnetism. I am also aware that can work the other way around, but I am not talking about that other inverse. Saying the bending of space/time causes time dilation is like saying electromagnetism causes electricity. Can you have electricity without magnetism? I realize electromagnetism is a more complete description of what is going on, but you cannot have one without the other. Same thing with time and space. They are linked. Time dilation is causing the curvature, or you could say it "is" the curvature. Don't take the causation too literally.
Actually I should make that a sphere for technical reasons. One dimensional spaces do not have intrinsic curvature.
@metal-brain saidFrom your post above the one I am replying to:
No, he isn't.
He just picked a fancy way of saying what I have been saying all along, time dilation is just one dimension. He is trying to say because the term "bending of space/time" is a more complete description I am omitting the other 3 dimensions when I say time dilation. However, it is an irrelevant point. Time dilation (from matter) always bends space. YOU CANNOT ...[text shortened]... eing shamelessly dishonest about it.
Go ahead. Ask a good professor. He will tell you I am right.
Curvature of space/time is just the inclusion of the other dimensions of space along with time.No, it is not. This sentence is virtually meaningless. The only meaning it can have is that adding extra dimensions to a time-like dimension creates a curved space-time. There is no reason that should be the case.
Time dilation and the bending of space/time are the same thing.No they are not. Time dilation is a difference in the rate of two different observer's clocks. Curvature measures the difference of circumference around a closed loop from what one would expect on a plane. They are separate concepts.
Einstein already did that 100 years ago."That" being to argue that gravity is caused by time dilation. You've been arguing this on the basis of watching a popular science video but haven't checked what Einstein actually said in his original papers, despite claiming he supports your case.
He is being completely narcissistic.Look in a mirror.
@metal-brain saidElectromagnetism is no more or less complete than GR, in fact as a classical field theory it is entirely compatible with GR.
Dude, that is like saying electricity does not cause magnetism. I am also aware that can work the other way around, but I am not talking about that other inverse. Saying the bending of space/time causes time dilation is like saying electromagnetism causes electricity. Can you have electricity without magnetism? I realize electromagnetism is a more complete description of ...[text shortened]... u could say it "is" the curvature. Don't take the causation too literally.
Now do you understand?
Saying the bending of space/time causes time dilation...Ok., I'll accept this sentence, really we need to specify two observers whose clocks are running at different rates and sort out some technical points to either make them stationkeep or have comparable states of motion somehow, but it'll do.
Time dilation is causing the curvatureThis on the other hand will not do. The presence of energy (i.e. matter) causes the curvature. I don't like "gravity is caused by time dilation" since I think concepts are getting mangled, this on the other hand is a mess. By "gravity" we mean the tendency for objects to fall in an already existing gravitational field.
@deepthought saidI, and I am absolutely certain the vast majority of physicists, would agree that won't do.Time dilation is causing the curvatureThis on the other hand will not do.
@deepthought saidYou are hopelessly dogmatic. ASK A GOOD PROFESSOR WHO SPECIALIZES IN THE FIELD OF GR AND YOU WILL FIND OUT I AM RIGHT.
Electromagnetism is no more or less complete than GR, in fact as a classical field theory it is entirely compatible with GR.Saying the bending of space/time causes time dilation...Ok., I'll accept this sentence, really we need to specify two observers whose clocks are running at different rates and sort out some technical points to either make them stationk ...[text shortened]... ime curving causes clocks to run at different rates.
2b) Space-time curving causes objects to fall.
@humy saidASK A GOOD PROFESSOR WHO SPECIALIZES IN THE FIELD OF GR AND YOU WILL FIND OUT I AM RIGHT.
I, and I am absolutely certain the vast majority of physicists, would agree that won't do.
That statement does indicate erroneous understanding to all of us that understand the physics and I would personally say, at least in the narrow context it was said, its also an abuse of the word 'causing'.
Also notice how he keep saying "space/time", as in "space or time", as opposed ...[text shortened]... s that misunderstanding. His thinking on physics is clearly very muddled and in many different ways.