1. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    11 Dec '09 16:311 edit
    Please answer a question:

    Is the Higgs space pervading idea any different from what use to be called the Ether?

    I have heard that the belief in a ether pervading the vacuum of space was eventually dropped.

    But lately I heard of something like a theorized Higgs element pervading all space which without which all things would be moving at light speed. This Higgs stuff is supposedly what causes things to have mass or weight so that all matter is not flying at light speed.

    This sounds to me like a new version of the ether. Can someone give me a layman's clarification of the difference between the old ether and the new Higgs stuff?
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    53223
    11 Dec '09 20:40
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Please answer a question:

    Is the Higgs space pervading idea any different from what use to be called the Ether?

    I have heard that the belief in a [b]ether
    pervading the vacuum of space was eventually dropped.

    But lately I heard of something like a theorized Higgs element pervading all space which without which all things would be moving at li ...[text shortened]... ve me a layman's clarification of the difference between the old ether and the new Higgs stuff?[/b]
    I think the old ether was viewed as an ocean in which waves traveled, like sound in the water needs that background to propagate. The Higgs field is more like a thicket where it endows mass where I think of it kind of like those guys you may have heard about that run naked through marijuana fields to collect the resin which is then scrapped off their bodies and it gets turned into hash. The higgs field I think is more like those plants that exude resin but in the higgs case, mass scrapes off stuff as it flies through. That is somewhat crude of course but I think that may get something like the flavor of the idea. BTW, I think they shave the runners first🙂 what a job, eh.
  3. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    11 Dec '09 23:58
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I think the old ether was viewed as an ocean in which waves traveled, like sound in the water needs that background to propagate. The Higgs field is more like a thicket where it endows mass where I think of it kind of like those guys you may have heard about that run naked through marijuana fields to collect the resin which is then scrapped off their bodies ...[text shortened]... mething like the flavor of the idea. BTW, I think they shave the runners first🙂 what a job, eh.
    Thanks.

    Here's a bit of humor about the Higgs boson particle being finally discovered:

    http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2009/04/higgs-boson-found.html
  4. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    16 Dec '09 09:51
    Is there any theory that IF we travel in one direction in the universe we would eventually arrive back at the place we started?

    I mean, perhaps space is curved around all the mass of the universe such that a traveler could only move in a huge "circle" given enough time.

    What do you all think ?
  5. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    16 Dec '09 09:581 edit
    About two weeks ago I heard something about gravity I had never heard before.

    I have heard for a while that gravity was the effect of the curvature of space around mass. But someone said that the object falls to the earth because it is being PUSHED by space, in this curvature fabric.

    I never heard it that way before. No one was able to explain to my understanding what makes the object move towards the other of greater mass.

    This science program said that SPACE pushes the falling object in curved space-time. This as opposed to the massive object reaching out and PULLING the lesser mass.

    So is this a little more representative explanation of curved space-time? Space is PUSHING the object in curved space towards the more massive object ?
  6. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    16 Dec '09 10:07
    Originally posted by jaywill
    About two weeks ago I heard something about gravity I had never heard before.

    I have heard for a while that gravity was the effect of the curvature of space around mass. But someone said that the object falls to the earth because it is being [b]PUSHED
    by space, in this curvature fabric.

    I never heard it that way before. No one was able to explain ...[text shortened]... curved space-time? Space is PUSHING the object in curved space towards the more massive object ?[/b]
    Never heard that space would push gravitationally. No, I don't think so. Gravitation is always an attracting force, never repulsive one.
  7. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    16 Dec '09 16:141 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Never heard that space would push gravitationally. No, I don't think so. Gravitation is always an attracting force, never repulsive one.
    ================================
    Never heard that space would push gravitationally. No, I don't think so. Gravitation is always an attracting force, never repulsive one.
    ====================================


    I never heard it that way before either. But the speaker explained that the fabric of space pushes the object in that place of convection. (If I understood him).

    Let me ask you this. What do you envision would happen if the sun were to suddenly disappear out of existence? Do you think that gravity would still act upon the earth for 8 minutes?

    Einstien said nothing could travel faster than light. So if the sun suddenly went away do you think gravity would still act upon the earth pulling at it for 8 minutes before it was flung off into the outer solar system?

    What I think I heard was that should the sun go away, ripples in the space time fabric would propogate from where the sun was outward in all directions.

    Ripples in the space time fabric !! Imagine that.
  8. Joined
    11 Nov '05
    Moves
    43938
    16 Dec '09 16:21
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I never heard it that way before either. But the speaker explained that the fabric of space pushes the object in that place of convection. (If I understood him).

    Let me ask you this. What do you envision would happen if the sun were to suddenly disappear out of existence? Do you think that gravity would still act upon the earth for 8 minutes? ...[text shortened]... re the sun was outward in all directions.

    Ripples in the space time fabric !! Imagine that.
    The problem is when someone tries to explain complicated things in a simple way so everyone would understand even without any scientific background. Often it goes wrong.

    No information can travel faster than light. This means that when you see the sun disappear, you also feel the effect of the sun isn't there. Also the gravitational effect. This information, of the sun isn't there anymore, spreads radially out the space.

    This is a concept I don't have any difficulties to understand. But ask me about the gravitons, and their properties, you will not get any answers from me. Because I don't know.
  9. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    16 Dec '09 17:02
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The problem is when someone tries to explain complicated things in a simple way so everyone would understand even without any scientific background. Often it goes wrong.

    No information can travel faster than light. This means that when you see the sun disappear, you also feel the effect of the sun isn't there. Also the gravitational effect. This inform ...[text shortened]... gravitons, and their properties, you will not get any answers from me. Because I don't know.
    ============================
    The problem is when someone tries to explain complicated things in a simple way so everyone would understand even without any scientific background. Often it goes wrong.
    ====================================


    I notice that that happens on other boards I participate in too.


    ===========================
    No information can travel faster than light. This means that when you see the sun disappear, you also feel the effect of the sun isn't there. Also the gravitational effect. This information, of the sun isn't there anymore, spreads radially out the space.

    This is a concept I don't have any difficulties to understand. But ask me about the gravitons, and their properties, you will not get any answers from me. Because I don't know.
    ==============================


    Thanks anyway. I'll have to learn something about gravitons as I am not familiar with them.
  10. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    16 Dec '09 17:06
    I have trouble factoring in "time" in this space-time fabric Relativity speaks of.

    I mean on the simple example of an object falling towards the earth because of the curvature of space around mass.

    Now, something of the space aspect I get a glimmer of, but how, in this example, is TIME related ?

    Let's say with the moon revolving around the earth because of the curvature of space-time around the mass of the earth. HOW does the TIME relate to this phenomenon?

    Anyone know ?
  11. Joined
    08 Oct '06
    Moves
    24000
    30 Dec '09 05:271 edit
    Jaywill,

    The idea is that objects travel along paths called world lines through space and time. Imagine a flat, two-dimensional piece of paper. Call it spacetime, with the vertical axis being time, and the horizontal axis being space. The natural path of an object (a path without any forces acting on that object) plotted on this graph is it's world line. This path would be a straight line whose slope would be the inverse of its velocity.

    Now, if instead, someone took the paper, and bent it, the world line would become curved, and follow a strange looking path. It would still follow the straightest path to get from a to b but now its path would be curved to do this. (The curved path is known as a geodesic) This is due to the curvature in our paper that we call spacetime.

    In reality, mass-energy curves not only the space dimensions, but the time dimension as well, analogous to the two dimensional example. Space and time have had an intimate relationship since special relativity, and general relativity extends this idea.
  12. weedhopper
    Joined
    25 Jul '07
    Moves
    8096
    30 Dec '09 22:23
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The problem is when someone tries to explain complicated things in a simple way so everyone would understand even without any scientific background. Often it goes wrong.

    No information can travel faster than light. This means that when you see the sun disappear, you also feel the effect of the sun isn't there. Also the gravitational effect. This inform ...[text shortened]... gravitons, and their properties, you will not get any answers from me. Because I don't know.
    Is there such a thing as a graviton?
  13. Joined
    08 Oct '06
    Moves
    24000
    31 Dec '09 00:09
    In theory, yes. We have not stumbled on to any concrete evidence demonstrating the physical existence of the graviton.
  14. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    02 Jan '10 11:31
    Originally posted by amolv06
    Jaywill,

    The idea is that objects travel along paths called world lines through space and time. Imagine a flat, two-dimensional piece of paper. Call it spacetime, with the vertical axis being time, and the horizontal axis being space. The natural path of an object (a path without any forces acting on that object) plotted on this graph is it's world line ...[text shortened]... ad an intimate relationship since special relativity, and general relativity extends this idea.
    =============================
    Jaywill,

    The idea is that objects travel along paths called world lines through space and time. Imagine a flat, two-dimensional piece of paper. Call it spacetime, with the vertical axis being time, and the horizontal axis being space. The natural path of an object (a path without any forces acting on that object) plotted on this graph is it's world line.
    ==================================


    I have seen diagrams like this for long time.

    Now when you talk about traveling along world lines, does this have to do with Newton's idea that moving things should not stop moving unless some force forms resistence to their velocity?

    I am trying to grasp if your leading up to an idea that everything is traveling (hence velocity).

    ===============================
    This path would be a straight line whose slope would be the inverse of its velocity.
    ===============================


    A straight line .... whose slope ... ?

    Inverse of its velocity ?

    I have seen the flexible graph picture for many years. It helps a tiny bit. But I guess I don't know enough about velocity or the mathematics it takes to demonstrate these concepts.

    Don't be discouraged. I'm here and there trying to pick up more understanding. Maybe you could help by talking just a wee bit more about the inverse of velocity.

    ====================
    Now, if instead, someone took the paper, and bent it, the world line would become curved, and follow a strange looking path. It would still follow the straightest path to get from a to b but now its path would be curved to do this. (The curved path is known as a geodesic) This is due to the curvature in our paper that we call spacetime.
    ============================


    Can you say a little bit about how time figures into this "falling" object on this curves spacetime grid.

    Okay, I get a glimmer of the curvature of space. How does time factor into gravity. Just a few words. I can understand that you can't in a forum post really make it totally clear to a novice.


    ======================================
    In reality, mass-energy curves not only the space dimensions, but the time dimension as well, analogous to the two dimensional example. Space and time have had an intimate relationship since special relativity, and general relativity extends this idea.
    =====================================


    Thanks for your effort.
  15. Standard memberAThousandYoung
    Shoot the Squatters?
    tinyurl.com/43m7k8bw
    Joined
    23 Aug '04
    Moves
    26660
    02 Jan '10 22:13
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Is there any theory that IF we travel in one direction in the universe we would eventually arrive back at the place we started?

    I mean, perhaps space is curved around all the mass of the universe such that a traveler could only move in a huge "circle" given enough time.

    What do you all think ?
    Yes. This is what I believe is meant by the phrase "finite but without bound".
Back to Top

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree