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Science Forum

  1. Standard member uzless
    The So Fist
    22 Sep '11 20:58
    A fundamental pillar of physics – that nothing can go faster than the speed of light – appears to be smashed by an oddball subatomic particle that has apparently made a giant end run around Albert Einstein’s theories.

    Scientists at the world’s largest physics lab said Thursday they have clocked neutrinos travelling faster than light. That’s something that according to Einstein’s 1905 special theory of relativity – the famous E (equals) mc2 equation – just doesn’t happen.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/scientists-in-shock-after-breaking-speed-of-light/article2176328/
  2. 22 Sep '11 21:04
    In reading the article its seems there is a lot of doubt, even from those who got the results, so lets not award Einstein the dunce cap just yet.

    Also, keep in mind that neutrinos were thought to travel only the speed of light, so this very small increase is very, very small.
  3. 22 Sep '11 21:13
    This is definitely still in the realms of maybe, possibly,
    can someone please tell us what we're doing wrong,
    territory.

    Also Neutrinos only travel at the speed of light if they are massless.
    They are currently thought not to be massless, just extremely light.
    However they are being kicked out of a particle accelerator so they
    should be moving at something like 99.99999999999% light speed.
  4. 22 Sep '11 21:27
    If true it works out at something like 7.4km/s over C

    ((60 * (10^(-9))s) / (730,000m / 299,792,458m/s)) * 299,792,458m/s = 7,387.02887m

    or about 0.0025%C

    However I wouldn't get excited. It is much more likely to be a systematic error than a result.

    If it is a result though it's extremely cool.

    However given how many times SR and GR have been tested, the circumstances for which it gets broken have
    got to be pretty exotic.
  5. Standard member Dasa
    Dasa
    22 Sep '11 21:35
    Originally posted by uzless
    A fundamental pillar of physics – that nothing can go faster than the speed of light – appears to be smashed by an oddball subatomic particle that has apparently made a giant end run around Albert Einstein’s theories.

    Scientists at the world’s largest physics lab said Thursday they have clocked neutrinos travelling faster than light. That’s something that ...[text shortened]... il.com/news/technology/science/scientists-in-shock-after-breaking-speed-of-light/article2176328/
    Your fundamental pillar of atheistic physics is wrong.

    Vedanta has informed us that the mind is swifter than light.

    Thought forms have always been faster.
  6. 22 Sep '11 21:47
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Your fundamental pillar of atheistic physics is wrong.

    Vedanta has informed us that the mind is swifter than light.

    Thought forms have always been faster.
    Every time you post, I'm going to eat an animal.
  7. 22 Sep '11 21:53
    Originally posted by amolv06
    Every time you post, I'm going to eat an animal.
    this made me laugh so hard.
  8. 22 Sep '11 22:45
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Your fundamental pillar of atheistic physics is wrong.

    Vedanta has informed us that the mind is swifter than light.

    Thought forms have always been faster.
    Who said you were allowed to post this? I am Vedanta and I imform you that you your mind is slower than slugs.
  9. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    22 Sep '11 23:34
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    If true it works out at something like 7.4km/s over C

    ((60 * (10^(-9))s) / (730,000m / 299,792,458m/s)) * 299,792,458m/s = 7,387.02887m

    or about 0.0025%C

    However I wouldn't get excited. It is much more likely to be a systematic error than a result.

    If it is a result though it's extremely cool.

    However given how many times SR and GR have been tested, the circumstances for which it gets broken have
    got to be pretty exotic.
    Wouldn't it be 1.0025 c if it is supposed to be going faster that c?

    Like they said though, it is probably some systemic error and in a couple of months there will be a correction paper, oops it was really 0.0025% UNDER c.
  10. 23 Sep '11 01:19
    From what I read, the neutrinos traveled over 700 km in 60 nanoseconds with an error of 10 nanoseconds. If we assume the largest error, that's over 700 km in 70 nanoseconds, or over 10 billion meters per second. This is over 30 times the speed of light.
  11. Standard member sumydid
    Aficionado of Prawns
    23 Sep '11 02:08 / 1 edit
    This lends some credibility to the holographic universe model - which many scientists dismiss out of hand because of Einstein's theory of relativity.

    When an electron is split into, it has been proven that the 2 resulting quanta travel at exact opposite angles (a bee-line in the opposite direction of one another)... no matter how far apart they are. This means that when one quantum bounces off an obstruction, the other one (again no matter how far apart it is) changes direction instantly to continue it's opposite direction angle away from the other quantum. The gist of all this is, quantum physicists such as Bohm (a student of Einsteins) have concluded that since the 2 quanta communicate with each other instantly (faster than light) then the logical deduction is they are part of a whole rather than separate. That whole, being the whole of the universe, a giant hologram where all things are interconnected.

    Anyway all this is shot down by Einstein's theory of relativity - and so I am very intrigued by the possibility that the theory of relativity is being challenged.

    You folks that are claiming all this doubt even by the researchers themselves need to read the whole article. The researchers themselves checked, double checked, triple checked their data through and through for months before making the announcement. It's not like it's some flim-flam claim by a bunch of hacks making assumptions. The researchers making the claim are just as astounded and perplexed as the rest of the scientific community.
  12. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    23 Sep '11 04:38 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sumydid
    This lends some credibility to the holographic universe model - which many scientists dismiss out of hand because of Einstein's theory of relativity.

    When an electron is split into, it has been proven that the 2 resulting quanta travel at exact opposite angles (a bee-line in the opposite direction of one another)... no matter how far apart they are. This king the claim are just as astounded and perplexed as the rest of the scientific community.
    This is the actual text:

    "CERN says a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometres) away in Italy travelled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant. But given the enormous implications of the find, they still spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there was no flaws in the experiment."

    Notice it said 60 nanoseconds FASTER than the speed of light. In other words if there had been a photon sent off at exactly the same time as the neutrino, the neutrino would have beaten the photon by 60 nanoseconds. This article in no way said anything about the neutrino covering the 700 odd Km in 60 nanoseconds.

    454 miles times 5280 =2397120 feet and light travels ~= 1 nanosecond per foot so that is about the number of nanoseconds for the total flight.

    So they are saying the neutrino covered that distance in 2,397,060 nanoseconds and that is 1.000025 X the speed of light, not 1.0025 like on poster said.

    That would put the photon about 60 feet behind the neutrino when it hit the target.
  13. 23 Sep '11 05:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    454 miles times 5280 =2397120 feet and light travels ~= 1 nanosecond per foot so that is about the number of nanoseconds for the total flight.

    So they are saying the neutrino covered that distance in 2,397,060 nanoseconds and that is 1.000025 X the speed of light, not 1.0025 like on poster said.
    Surely that 454 miles is only correct to 3 decimal places? (or less, if you just converted it from kilometres).
  14. Standard member Dasa
    Dasa
    23 Sep '11 05:49
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    this made me laugh so hard.
    Are you laughing or crying?

    I have just smashed your fundamental principle of physics.

    Light is energy.

    Thought forms are in reality energy.

    Thought forms have been going faster than light for eternity.

    So your fundamental is not so fundamental.

    Dumb science.
  15. 23 Sep '11 06:26
    Originally posted by Dasa
    Are you laughing or crying?

    I have just smashed your fundamental principle of physics.

    Light is energy.

    Thought forms are in reality energy.

    Thought forms have been going faster than light for eternity.

    So your fundamental is not so fundamental.

    Dumb science.
    You will now be formally known as 'dunca'.