On existence of Mind and Soul

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Thanks for a very clear reply. Excuse me for persisting but please clarify further. Brain output is either some command to body organs or some message to its other parts or what we call as "our thoughts". While commands to our body organs or messages to its own parts will be in some Analog form what enables the Brain to compose thoughts in Human Language ? where is the encoder, decoder ?

Thoughts aren't single entities, but a combination of many electrical currents distributed over millions of neurons. This may give the illusion of a single entity called "Mind", but that is all it is, an illusion.

These electrical currents are impulses triggered by previous impulses, which are also acted upon from outside stimuli (i.e. from our senses).

I agree that it isn't completely understood, but to suggest that there is actually an entity separate from the brain, which the brain some how communicates with, takes a leap of faith and can only be speculation.

Why does it need a mind or a "central controller" to work?

Imagine a socialist society where everyone is working together without a central government. Everyone is altruistic and happy to work with each other in harmony, then you will have a system in place which does not require a controller. This, of course, is an analogy to explain how neurons work together because it will be unrealistic to actually put such socialism in to practice because individuals tend to be greedy and take advantage. In this example, it can only become chaotic.

Neurons aren't greedy though, they only need to perform the tasks at hand completely in tune with its surroundings. All of them work together and do not have to follow any orders because the only thing they "know" how to do is what they have to do (i.e. carry out tasks in response to what others do). They have evolved that way and can't do anything else.

Originally posted by lausey
Thoughts aren't single entities, but a combination of many electrical currents distributed over millions of neurons. This may give the illusion of a single entity called "Mind", but that is all it is, an illusion.

These electrical currents are impulses triggered by previous impulses, which are also acted upon from outside stimuli (i.e. from our senses).
...[text shortened]... in response to what others do). They have evolved that way and can't do anything else.

Thoughts in Human Language are comprising of discrete units called words either linked up in sentences or loose. While a language is learnt by an infant from parents etc. the enabling mechanism for putting thoughts ( if comprising of electrical impulses ) into words is not understood.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“....The Brain is an organ comprising neural cells separated by synapses across which micro electric currents leap whenever communication between various parts of brain and body or within the brain takes place. But this leaves out who or what directs the passage of currents. ..”

don't understand what you mean: What “ directs the passage of current ...[text shortened]... ng but the first time I posted this, my post suddenly disappeared! I had to start it again.

I have here a quote of Dr..Penfield given by Michael Sebom in his book-Recollections of Death." For myself,after a professional lifetime spent in trying to discover how the brain accounts for the mind,it comes as a surprise now to discover during this final examination of the evidence that the dualist hypothesis( separation of mind and brain) seems the more reasonable of the two possible explanations-----Mind comes into action and goes out of action-with the highest brain mechanism,it is true. But mind has energy. The form of that energy is different from that of the neuronal potentials that travel the axone pathway."

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Thoughts in Human Language are comprising of discrete units called words either linked up in sentences or loose. While a language is learnt by an infant from parents etc. the enabling mechanism for putting thoughts ( if comprising of electrical impulses ) into words is not understood.

Yes indeed, so let's make sure we do more research to understand the brain better rather than using the lazy cop-out of "mind" or "soul".

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Yes indeed, so let's make sure we do more research to understand the brain better rather than using the lazy cop-out of "mind" or "soul".

Why the words "Lazy cop out like Mind or Soul" ? These words simply belong to some other hypotheses made by very thoughtful and intelligent people working hard in their own ways.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I have here a quote of Dr..Penfield given by Michael Sebom in his book-Recollections of Death." For myself,after a professional lifetime spent in trying to discover how the brain accounts for the mind,it comes as a surprise now to discover during this final examination of the evidence that the dualist hypothesis( separation of mind and brain) seems the mo ...[text shortened]... that energy is different from that of the neuronal potentials that travel the axone pathway."

He is just talking gobbledygook and total nonsense here.
What you must understand is that not even all qualified scientists are immune from coming out with such nonsense and just because such a person says something like that does not mean it makes any sort of real sense.
This is specially true when it comes to scientists or anyone else talking about such ambiguous words such as “mind” and “consciousness” because such words have NO real scientific meaning whatsoever!
He is also venturing outside his field of expertise because this is really about philosophy rather than any kind of rational science.

When it comes to 'mind' and 'consciousness', nobody knows what they are talking about! ( in the literal sense )
And that includes him and also me!

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I am a bachelor of civil engineering from one of the top technology institutes of India,namely IIT,Bombay. I had visited UK in connection with testing of Shock Transmission Units then being fitted on one of our bridges prior to despatch. Testing was done at Warrington, Cheshire,in the Nuclear Energy Authority Lab.

Amazing. All that nuclear experience and you don't know that temperature measures something related, but not equal to heat?

Richard

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Thoughts in Human Language are comprising of discrete units called words either linked up in sentences or loose.

Again wildly wrong.

I've had it with you. You're either a troll, or incapable of structured thought. Either way arguing with you is a waste of time.

Richard

Originally posted by Taoman
>> "What “ directs the passage of currents” is the semi-permeable membranes and neurotransmitters."

Nothing directs anything else. It all happens together, electro-chemical processes, hormones, cellar components act together in a highly ordered way, constructing, maintaining and transporting and organising huge numbers of multivariant and complex cellular ...[text shortened]... nnected "field of awareness".

This has the very flavour of the quantum to it. Funny that.

“...>> "What “ directs the passage of currents” is the semi-permeable membranes and neurotransmitters." (my quote)

Nothing directs anything else. ...”

I am not sure how but I think you have misunderstood what I meant by “directs”: I took the word “directs” in this context as meaning what physically directs the current to take one path rather than another. Obviously, the physical routes the semi-permeable membranes and neurotransmitters take are what determines which way the electric current physically 'goes' and that is all what I meant by “directs”! i.e. “directs” in that sense of the word just as the shape of a river “directs” the direction of the flow of the water.

Did you think I meant “directs” as in “intelligently manages”? If so, that is not what I meant.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Then under whose directions and control the "semipermeable membranes" and "neurotransmitters" work ? If your answer is "they work automatically", it will mean that the entire immense Treasury of Human Thought,so well evolved,focussed and directed towards search of Answers to the riddles of the Universe,is nothing but psychobabble! A Shakespeare written by a monkey having inexhaustible supply of time and paper etc.?

“...Then under whose directions and control the "semi-permeable membranes" and "neurotransmitters" work ? ...”

Nobody.
An electric current going though the air from a strike of lighting doesn't require anyone giving it directions.
An electric current going though ta wire doesn't require anyone giving it directions.
So why should electric current going through a nerve connection require somebody directing it?

“...If your answer is "they work automatically",...”

...which it is...on the tiny scale of neurons.

“... it will mean that the entire immense Treasury of Human Thought,so well evolved,focussed and directed towards search of Answers to the riddles of the Universe,is nothing but psychobabble! ...”

on the tiny scale of neurons, everything is automatic; on the larger scale of the brain as a whole, there is real awareness and intelligence there.
There is no logical contradiction between those two things.
If I look at a picture of a forest just on a microscopic scale, all I see is meaningless pigment molecules and no forest. But if I stand back and see it as a whole, I see a meaningful picture of a forest. If those meaningless pigment molecules are analogous to the neurons, then the whole meaningful picture of the forest is analogous to what we call awareness and intelligence ( far from a perfect analogue but I hope it gives you an idea of what I mean? ) .

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...>> "What “ directs the passage of currents” is the semi-permeable membranes and neurotransmitters." (my quote)

Nothing directs anything else. ...”

I am not sure how but I think you have misunderstood what I meant by “directs”: I took the word “directs” in this context as meaning what physically directs the current to take one path rather th ...[text shortened]... you think I meant “directs” as in “intelligently manages”? If so, that is not what I meant.

Right, I did get you wrong.

Cheers.

Originally posted by lausey
Thoughts aren't single entities, but a combination of many electrical currents distributed over millions of neurons. This may give the illusion of a single entity called "Mind", but that is all it is, an illusion.

These electrical currents are impulses triggered by previous impulses, which are also acted upon from outside stimuli (i.e. from our senses).
...[text shortened]... in response to what others do). They have evolved that way and can't do anything else.

Interestingly, there is a lot resonant with Buddhistic understandings here.

The concept of something apart directing processes be it a god or some overriding entity called "mind" or "self" is dualistic (a no-no) from a philosophical point of view and not demonstrable scientifically. But, as you are probably aware, I do not agree with the reductionist scientific understanding of we are "nothing but..." physical processes.
Despite all our words about this "illusion", we do, surely undeniably, experience a sense of united functioning, including our thought processes, giving us a sense of having a "self". We are clearly not automatons. I have referred to the holographic paradigm that was first proposed by Bohm and Pribram (neuro-physicist) in another post.

The "everything keeping in tune", the holistic emergent quality causing phenomenon like "thoughts" to appear is that which I think will be shown to have a quantum basis at microtubule level of the neuronic structures. This will provide little difficulty with zen/taoist philosophical understandings.

Phase Conjunctive Adaptive Resonance (PCAR) studies are showing that such resonance is possible at biological temperature ranges.

This summary article by Edgar Mitchell has a solid scientific approach behind its explorations, and is a principal reference on the subject for me.

http://www.edmitchellapollo14.com/naturearticle.htm

Originally posted by lausey
Imagine a socialist society where everyone is working together without a central government. Everyone is altruistic and happy to work with each other in harmony, then you will have a system in place which does not require a controller. This, of course, is an analogy to explain how neurons work together because it will be unrealistic to actually put such socia ...[text shortened]... e individuals tend to be greedy and take advantage. In this example, it can only become chaotic.

I think government is an excellent analogy and I don't see why you chose socialist society. Try to identify where 'government' is in a country and I think you will find that it is as hard to find as 'mind' is in a human. It is not an entity as such but rather the overall result of humans and rules all working towards one common goal (or rather many goals).
Both 'mind' and 'government' are patterns or processes created as a result of many individual parts working together (or even against each other as the case may be).

Originally posted by Taoman
Interestingly, there is a lot resonant with Buddhistic understandings here.

On that note, here is VS Ramachandran's well known article on mirror neurons and the mind in a vat.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandran06/ramachandran06_index.html

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think government is an excellent analogy and I don't see why you chose socialist society. Try to identify where 'government' is in a country and I think you will find that it is as hard to find as 'mind' is in a human. It is not an entity as such but rather the overall result of humans and rules all working towards one common goal (or rather many goals) many individual parts working together (or even against each other as the case may be).

Good point. I was concentrating on the non-hierarchy aspect of socialism, and realise that there are many factors in socialism which will not be relevant in my analogy.

I will add though that in that society you have described where each of the humans have common goals, neurons will have no goals, it just follows a strict set of evolved rules.

However, macroscopically, millions of them will have goals (i.e. our goals). These goals being a by product of billions of years of surviving long enough to reproduce, and becoming more efficient at doing this in competition to its peers.

Unfortunately it is too easy to use emotive words when describing evolution. Evolutionists know what they mean when using the words, but many non-evolutionists often twist this around to suggest a purpose and intelligence driving it (e.g. "selection"😉.