Originally posted by AThousandYoungBut if both the lion and the gazelle have the right to life, and the lion's right to life can only be satisfied by feeding on the gazelle (or zebra, or whatever other critter lions enjoy eating), which right to life triumphs? Is the lion wrong for killing the gazelle to stay alive? If all lions kill gazelles all their lives just to stay alive, are they just a bunch of jerks?
Nope!
Just as we cannot eat each other.
3 edits
Originally posted by PBE6Well of course lions can eat rabbits or hyenas or something instead. In any case nobody said lions were people, or that all animals were people, or even all mammals.
But if both the lion and the gazelle have the right to life, and the lion's right to life can only be satisfied by feeding on the gazelle (or zebra, or whatever other critter lions enjoy eating), which right to life triumphs? Is the lion wrong for killing the gazelle to stay alive? If all lions kill gazelles all their lives just to stay alive, are they just a bunch of jerks?
If a Lion and all Gazelles had a Right to Life, the Lion would be a Person, and would be aware that killing a gazelle is murder and therefore immoral. It would be placed in a very awkward position, and could probably only live morally off of carrion and "lower" animals (whatever doesn't count as a Person) or with the help of technology (their own or human technology).
The Right to Life is a Liberty Right, not a Welfare Right. Nobody has to feed the Lion to respect it's Right to Life. Just don't kill it and you're fine.
Originally posted by PBE6But if both the lion and the gazelle have the right to life, and the lion's right to life can only be satisfied by feeding on the gazelle (or zebra, or whatever other critter lions enjoy eating)
But if both the lion and the gazelle have the right to life, and the lion's right to life can only be satisfied by feeding on the gazelle (or zebra, or whatever other critter lions enjoy eating), which right to life triumphs? Is the lion wrong for killing the gazelle to stay alive? If all lions kill gazelles all their lives just to stay alive, are they just a bunch of jerks?
This implies the Right to Life is a Welfare Right. It is not. It is a Liberty Right.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageShouldn't we be limiting the discussion to intelligent forward looking animals?
The answer is obvious, Comrade Stalin.
Lions and their prey have been around for a million years and have both have survived into our time without help but their habitat has been mostly destroyed by humans and the same with dolphins. Isn't there some attachment between dolphins and humans that goes beyond other animals BECAUSE of their obvious intelligence? It seems to me the fishing of dolphins is tantamount to cannibalism in that case. Isn't that more of the gist of the argument?
To use the alien analogy, if we went to some alien planet and found intelligent beings there, wouldn't it be reprehensible to start hunting and eating them?
Originally posted by sonhouseWhy is intelligence even a factor? Is profound mental retardation a reason to remove rights from humans? How many animals can perform cognitive functions that these people cannot?
Shouldn't we be limiting the discussion to intelligent forward looking animals?
Lions and their prey have been around for a million years and have both have survived into our time without help but their habitat has been mostly destroyed by humans and the same with dolphins. Isn't there some attachment between dolphins and humans that goes beyond other anim ...[text shortened]... und intelligent beings there, wouldn't it be reprehensible to start hunting and eating them?
Pigs are also quite intelligent, yet we kill them massively.
I was just goofing around with the lion thing, although I think ATY made some interesting points, especially about the Liberty right vs. Welfare right (Claim right?) thing, I had never encountered that terminology before. My main point (whenever I was going to get to it) was that rights only come up when there's conflict between two entities, and I think the nature of the conflict has a substantial impact on the type and implementation of rights. The nature of the conflict between lion and gazelle is one of predator vs. prey, with neither entity being capable of understanding the concept of "rights" (as far as we know), in which case it seems silly to attribute rights to either one. So what's the nature of the conflict between dolphins and humans? Do dolphins understand the concept of "rights"?
Originally posted by PalynkaHow many animals can perform cognitive functions that these people cannot?
Why is intelligence even a factor? Is profound mental retardation a reason to remove rights from humans? How many animals can perform cognitive functions that these people cannot?
Pigs are also quite intelligent, yet we kill them massively.
I don't know. Do you?
It seems some suspect dolphins and great apes are persons because they are as smart or smarter than mentally retarded humans. That's kinda the point.
Originally posted by PBE6The nature of the conflict is that Japanese fisherman prey on dolphins, and do so in a particularly cruel and painful fashion. This, some say, violates dolphins' Rights.
I was just goofing around with the lion thing, although I think ATY made some interesting points, especially about the Liberty right vs. Welfare right (Claim right?) thing, I had never encountered that terminology before. My main point (whenever I was going to get to it) was that rights only come up when there's conflict between two entities, and I think the n ...[text shortened]... the conflict between dolphins and humans? Do dolphins understand the concept of "rights"?
2 edits
Originally posted by PBE6Oh, you're right about the Right. The correct term is Claim Rights, not Welfare Rights.
I was just goofing around with the lion thing, although I think ATY made some interesting points, especially about the Liberty right vs. Welfare right (Claim right?) thing, I had never encountered that terminology before. My main point (whenever I was going to get to it) was that rights only come up when there's conflict between two entities, and I think the n the conflict between dolphins and humans? Do dolphins understand the concept of "rights"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_right
No, wait, that's not what I mean. That article suggests that the Right to Life is a Claim Right, because it obligates others to not kill you.
Hmmm.
Here we go I think. THIS is what I was talking about...I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights