Should dolphins have rights? (Scientific perspective)

Originally posted by sonhouse
Isn't the mirror test a good indication of self-awareness? The latest: Crows, when seeing a colored dot on their feathers they can't see directly, will pick at the dot with their claws. Seems cut and dried to me they are self aware. Not many animals have that. That said, that is only one test and probably not a proof but just one indicator.

Fab: What do you lecture about and to what audiences?

Well, it doesn't work on old aunt Berit. She is blind, but I know for sure that she is self-aware, because she says so.

Whe the mirror-test is conducted to find out if a parrot is self-aware we sutdy its behaviour. It moves in a specific way that shows if it has self-awareness or not.

The mirror-test doesn't work for old uncle Bengt, because he is lame from top to toe. If he recognize himself in the mirror we cannot tell from his movements. Well, he can tell me about himself, so I'm sure that he is aware of his self, but a parrot cannot do that.

So there has to be three different mirror-tests for aunt Berit, uncle Ben, and a parrot. How to design a mirror self-awareness test for any object? Like a 300-year old oak from the local national park, like the eternal-burning ground-fire in Siberia, like the quantum computer not yet built, like a rock from Mars? We simply wouldn't know.

I know that Aunt Berit has self-awareness, same goes for uncle Bengt. I know that the old oak hasn't self-awareness, same goes for the groundfire, the computer, and the martian rock. Why? Because I 'know'. Weather or not the parrot is self-aware depend of what result I want, and what test I conduct.

So, bottom-line, we know already the obvious answers. It's only in the gray_zone we don't. And will not ever know in the future if we don't define what in hell self-awareness really is!

[Edit] Is there self-awareness in a cross with a hanging wooden man attached to it in the interiour of pointy buildings? No? Then why are people talking telepathicly to it?
(If you respond this question, please don't use religious reasoning, I remind you that we are in the Science Forum.)

Originally posted by FabianFnas
So, bottom-line, we know already the obvious answers. It's only in the gray_zone we don't. And will not ever know in the future if we don't define what in hell self-awareness really is!

I don't think the definition is as much at fault as our lack of ability to read minds.
If I ask what entities were capable of dreaming, you would have an equally difficult problems with some obvious cases (humans and rocks) and lots of unknowns (ants possibly). Is dreaming also rather undefined? I know my cat has dreams.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't think the definition is as much at fault as our lack of ability to read minds.
If I ask what entities were capable of dreaming, you would have an equally difficult problems with some obvious cases (humans and rocks) and lots of unknowns (ants possibly). Is dreaming also rather undefined? I know my cat has dreams.

What do your cat dream about?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't think the definition is as much at fault as our lack of ability to read minds.
If I ask what entities were capable of dreaming, you would have an equally difficult problems with some obvious cases (humans and rocks) and lots of unknowns (ants possibly). Is dreaming also rather undefined? I know my cat has dreams.

Both the parrot's self awareness and the dreaming questions can probably be evaluated empirically via analysis of the nervous system.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Both the parrot's self awareness and the dreaming questions can probably be evaluated empirically via analysis of the nervous system.

Can neurological imaging technology shed light on the subjective experience of being a parrot, a cat or an octopus?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
What do your cat dream about?

The question of mine wasn't all too stupid.

What I meant was - Yes, dreaming is also rather undefined. We know that cats dream, but about what? I don't even know what I'm dreaming but we all do, every night. I even talk in my sleep, or so says my girlfriend, I don't know.

The deeper part of my reasoning is - What if our reality isn't much more than a dream? Another ones dream? Or just a simulation in a giant computer? Do we know? How would we know? Is some experimet possible to find out?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Can neurological imaging technology shed light on the subjective experience of being a parrot, a cat or an octopus?

"Shed light" is a vague statement. We might learn something about it. Unless you see the brain as a mystical entity, then what goes in it is theoretically possible to learn about. Will we ever know exactly what the subjective experience of an octopus is? Probably not exactly, but does it matter? We can't even know between ourselves and we're able to communicate and share the same species!

Originally posted by Palynka
"Shed light" is a vague statement. We might learn something about it. Unless you see the brain as a mystical entity, then what goes in it is theoretically possible to learn about. Will we ever know exactly what the subjective experience of an octopus is? Probably not exactly, but does it matter? We can't even know between ourselves and we're able to communicate and share the same species!

If you're trying to answer the question 'what does a cat dream', then it matters. Because the answer will always be -- 'ask the cat'.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
If you're trying to answer the question 'what does a cat dream', then it matters. Because the answer will always be -- 'ask the cat'.

For now...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/feb/03/vegetative-state-patient-communication

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Can neurological imaging technology shed light on the subjective experience of being a parrot, a cat or an octopus?

I don't know. Probably, depending on what you mean exactly. To take readings from a cat and reproduce those feelings in the reader is beyond us for a while I think, but we can shed some light with such analysis.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
If you're trying to answer the question 'what does a cat dream', then it matters. Because the answer will always be -- 'ask the cat'.

Not necessarily. Maybe the cat will lie, or forget.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
If you're trying to answer the question 'what does a cat dream', then it matters. Because the answer will always be -- 'ask the cat'.

We can in theory eventually develop the technology to know what a cat is dreaming about.
Reading minds, even cat minds, is not theoretically impossible.

Originally posted by twhitehead
We can in theory eventually develop the technology to know what a cat is dreaming about.
Reading minds, even cat minds, is not theoretically impossible.

Will that be the same as experiencing the subjective experience of being a cat?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Contining from Sonhouses initial thread:

http://www.physorg.com/news181981904.html

These scientists think so. What do you guys think?

No I don't think so.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Will that be the same as experiencing the subjective experience of being a cat?

It would be awesome if we could do that. Then we could put the cat in a certain...box and see what happens.