The Official Global Warming Thread

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Actually I don't. What have the existance of polar bears to do with earth being flat? He implies something that I reject. I think he don't understood my previous postings.

Then he gives me a personal attack of being lazy and ignorant, which means that he is already lost the discussion. Giving personal attacks is a sign that he doesn't care to stay on topic at all. But perhaps only he have a bad day. Why not just let him explain for himself.

I also said it could be a lack of desire. Perhaps you truly do not understand.
I was on topic. Perhaps you truly do not understand.
Perhaps you do not understand comparisons.
And that is she, not he.
Angela

Originally posted by caissad4
I also said it could be a lack of desire. Perhaps you truly do not understand.
I was on topic. Perhaps you truly do not understand.
Perhaps you do not understand comparisons.
And that is she, not he.
Angela

Then show me your point, do you know yourself?

I normally use 'he' as a neutrum when gender is not important.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
OK, let's analyze this Global Warming stuff. How do we know it's happening? Why do we think it's happening, and why do we think so? Why do we care?

I live by the river. The water behind the dykes is rising.

It hasn't really snowed in ten years. We used to have months of snow and ice in winter. When I was young we thought our parents were selling us a load of crap with their stories of how cold it used to be when THEY were young, we just thought we had better central heating. But I remember that we could skate. I still have the pictures. There hasn't been natural ice to skate on for ten years. We're selling our kids the same crap, and the water is still rising.

Should we care? I don't know. The dykes are higher than they used to be and the storm barriers are better too, protective measures have been taken. If you ask me, is it really happening, then yes, I think so.
But what is more worrying than global warming is the quality of drinking water and other environmental pollution. I don't think we're actually that much bothered by the heat, are we?

Originally posted by thyme
But what is more worrying than global warming is the quality of drinking water and other environmental pollution. I don't think we're actually that much bothered by the heat, are we?

If the ice caps melt then rising sea levels will cause more economic damage than any previous natural disaster. Almost all coastal cities will either have to relocate or build expensive dykes and pumps etc. I am sure that you know the economic costs and risks of maintaining dykes. The Katrina disaster was really a failure of dykes not pure hurricane damage.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If the ice caps melt then rising sea levels will cause more economic damage than any previous natural disaster. Almost all coastal cities will either have to relocate or build expensive dykes and pumps etc. I am sure that you know the economic costs and risks of maintaining dykes. The Katrina disaster was really a failure of dykes not pure hurricane damage.

Yes, I know. Just now I was outside and a military helicopter flew over. They must be measuring the dykes. They do that every year. A lot of our industry and even military is aimed at combatting the water. But that also has economic value.

And actually, around here the damage is greater when the water level fals too low. Old houses are built on wooden poles because the soil is too soft. Nowadays they use concrete, but there are many 100 year old houses or older which are still good and which it would take a great deal of money to rebuild. In certain areas the measures that have been taken result in the water level being periodically lower than normal. This area is below sea level and below the level of the rivers that surround it. Hundreds of years ago there was nothing but mud. The people won the land from the delta by punping it dry with windmills. Nowadays they use pumps. Water is perpetually being pumped out. Where bigger pumps are installed and the run of canals has been changed it is possible that the water is lower behind the dyke than it used to be - at least in the dry periods. If the water level falls too low, the wooden foundation of houses can dry out and rot. It's a question of balance.

But really I have nothing against combatting global warming if it also helps reducing pollution, maybe I should have made that more clear.

Originally posted by UzumakiAi
That's not true. They will die, because they AREN'T fit for the environment we are tending towards. A few more degrees, huge reserves of frozen, pressurized methane gas come up from the bottom of the ocean and from the melting permafrost of Canada and Alaska. This is a much more potent greenhouse gas. It will change the environment drastically in a very sh ...[text shortened]... s ago, and it is possible that this might seriously mess up our whole world domination thing.

Maybe we NEED to be knocked of the world domination thing. Look what it's got us so far....
I think we have only a few decades of high technology left, and if we don't establish colonies on at least the moon and mars we are not going to have a technological civilization in another thousand years. It'l be back to tribe against tribe and another 10,000 years of darkness. The problem with that scene is we have already used up so much of the natural resources of the planet, any future scientific civilization will have a lot less to build on. At least there won't be any more creationists left.....

Originally posted by thyme
If the water level falls too low, the wooden foundation of houses can dry out and rot. It's a question of balance.

Yes but that is all on your side of the dyke which is the 'managed' side and will not be affected by rising sea levels. However some of your dykes may have to be raised or strengthened if the sea level rises and you may even have to build more dykes where it was previously not necessary. The flow of the rivers will also change as the point where the river water level matches sea level will move upstream. The result will be change. Change is almost always costly.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes but that is all on your side of the dyke which is the 'managed' side and will not be affected by rising sea levels. However some of your dykes may have to be raised or strengthened if the sea level rises and you may even have to build more dykes where it was previously not necessary. The flow of the rivers will also change as the point where the river ...[text shortened]... tches sea level will move upstream. The result will be change. Change is almost always costly.

I don't blame you for misunderstanding my reply because it is a very complicated problem/ status quo. What I was saying it that measures have been taken to prevent the water behind the dykes from rising. These measures disturb the balance there was before. In rainy months the pumps should be able to maintain the level of water below a certain maximum, so bigger pumps are needed. and canals are rerouted or added. But these measures can mean that in dry months the water level falls too low. Low water levels are bad for wooden foundations and also for the dyke itself. So by fighting the problem, they add to it.

And yes, not only are the dykes are always being strengthened as part of normal maintenance they have also been reinforced in case of higher water levels. We have storm barriers but I am not aware that any extra were built because of rising water, but in general I am not disagreeing with you at all.

I think i did say that 'costly' has it's economic value too, if you are on the right side of it.. all this maintenance provides jobs etc. but that wasn't meant as a disagreement.

but maybe Americans are tired of fighting wars overseas now, it might do them some good to stay at home and fight the seas instead.

Originally posted by thyme
I don't blame you for misunderstanding my reply because it is a very complicated problem/ status quo.

I think I do/did understand you. My only objection is you seem to think that the effect of rising sea levels is not very major.

but maybe Americans are tired of fighting wars overseas now, it might do them some good to stay at home and fight the seas instead.
Actually the Americans may be able to afford to deal with it, Bangladesh on the other hand can not and will go under the sea and tens of millions of people will loose their homes and livelihood.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think I do/did understand you. My only objection is you seem to think that the effect of rising sea levels is not very major.

[b]but maybe Americans are tired of fighting wars overseas now, it might do them some good to stay at home and fight the seas instead.
Actually the Americans may be able to afford to deal with it, Bangladesh on the other ...[text shortened]... and will go under the sea and tens of millions of people will loose their homes and livelihood.[/b]

It's all true.

Maybe we agree. The only reason I may not appear very shocked by the fact that the water is rising is that for us it is a status quo. But if people have doubts, they can come here and watch. It really is rising. And there's plenty more pollution too, than there used to be. But I understand that is a different thread.

Edit: since this is the science forum:
http://www.knmi.nl/klimaatscenarios/waarnemingen/images/25_n_wi_w451.gif
the amount of rain in winter over the years between 1900 and 2005

When it rains and storms in the winter, there is no doubt that the water in the canals is higher than it has ever been when there wasn't a flood.
This combined with the fact that the number of ice days is falling:

http://www.knmi.nl/klimaatscenarios/waarnemingen/images/4_n_w451.gif
blue is nr of days we've had frost

and the summer temperatures have been rising:

http://www.knmi.nl/klimaatscenarios/waarnemingen/images/24_n_zo_w451.gif

In a temperate climate like we have here, these changes are much noticed. In a climate that is not so temperate, they might be less obvious.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
OK, let's analyze this Global Warming stuff. How do we know it's happening? Why do we think it's happening, and why do we think so? Why do we care?

31,072 American scientists have signed this petition, including 9,021 with PhDs:

http://www.petitionproject.org/

Interesting article:

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/globaltemp/GlobTemp.JNET.pdf

It describes the misconception of "global temperature", and how a system represented by an index can be described as both increasing and decreasing in some property based on the nature of the averaging functions used.

I posted that one (see above) around the office in opposition to this article, which makes prominent use of the average global temperature concept to show that the Earth is apparently getting cooler:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=525590

Originally posted by PBE6
I posted that one (see above) around the office in opposition to this article, which makes prominent use of the average global temperature concept to show that the Earth is apparently getting cooler:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=525590

I have no information of the general temperatures in Africa. I know the winters in tropical Australia have got colder.

It seems that the Inuit in southern Greenland can now grow crops. Which seems to me is a good thing.

The only people who should seriously worry are the Dutch and the Bangladeshians, because the melting ice could suddenly wash both these countries away.

Personally I like water and I'm not too worried. Dutch architects are enjoying themselves dreaming up floating cities. I can't speak for Bangladeshians. At the risk of sounding callous: they don't have much do they? Maybe they should leve it all behind and move to higher grounds...

Originally posted by thyme
The only people who should seriously worry are the Dutch and the Bangladeshians, because the melting ice could suddenly wash both these countries away.

Actually every single country with a coast line would be affected including almost half the worlds major cities. (Don't forget that New Orleans is already below sea level - but because it is sinking not because the sea is rising).
I don't think it would be a sudden wash away.