Time paradox

Originally posted by sonhouse
So you figure if you come into your house and find your daughter about to be raped and you have a gun and you then have the choice to shoot the bastard or just hold him for the cops and you choose the latter, you didn't do that because of free will? If most people came into that situation a lot of them would shoot with no hesitation so which one is acting on free will or are they both programmed to do what they, in retrospect, did?

They had the free will to act on their desires. They cannot freely choose their desires though.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
There are the two possibilities; free will OR not free will

[b]A. IF there is no free will then life is TOTALLY meaningless

B. IF there is free will then life is just PROBABLY meaningless

I'm an optimist [ 😉 ] so I'm opting for B[/b]

"Meaningless"? Meaning for who? You can live a profoundly satisfying and virtuous life in which you feel as though your will is free even if you are programmed.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
[b]A. IF there is no free will then life is TOTALLY meaningless[/b]

How does free will give meaning to life?

Originally posted by twhitehead
That makes sense. Knightmeister however seemed to be claiming that God should take all credit and that he personally took no real part in the decision. He similarly claimed that God made my decisions for me too.
So what do you believe is the methodology of your decision making? Is it a result of your memories, your intelligence (the way your brain is wir ...[text shortened]... lly separate from the body (and the physical universe)?
Or is it a combination of the above?

How could anyone be judged for choices they had no power to make?
My struggles typically are not with the choices I'm not real clear about as
much as the ones I know better and I still make the one I know I should
not. 🙁 I think there is a level where we are simply wired to act, yet we
have within us the ability to do what we should. Thiefs know when they
are stealing that it is wrong, they may justify themselves, but they know.
Those who lie know the truth or they would not have to lie. Those that
demand others live one way and yet they refuse to do the same are
acknowledging the truth, they just refuse to live by it so they will be
judged. Mankind is going to judged harshly not for the mysteries so much
as that which we acknowledge we know and even demand in others.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
How does free will give meaning to life?

Someone said we have desires I'll take that farther and say even lusts, yet
we do not have to be controlled by them, we can choose something more,
something better for ourselves and others. Meaning in life if it is just to
wallow in our base desires and lusts than our lives have the same meaning
as trash flowing down stream. Making something of ourselves, our lives,
living above that makes our lives something else, something more than just
going through the motions and going with the flow.
Kelly

If there is no such thing as free will, than having a discussion about it doesn't make sense. As people cannot discuss in other ways as they do, we can better just shut up. Trying to prove the non-existence of free will also doesn't make sense. We will find the proof or not, no matter if we try hard or just sit on our ass.

Therefore, it is just better to think we have a free will. And if you don't "believe" in it, sorry I cannot help it. It is deterministic destination that I do.

But seriously. I had this discussion quite a lot of times. I find it strange that so many scientist believe in deterministic destination. I am a scientist myself, but I felt often pushed in the corner of religious outcast when I advocate my opinion that free will must exist. So stop the crap that
strict determination is THE scientific point of view. From my philosophical reasons above, I think we should just accept "free will" and continue our lives. I even think that believing in "deterministic destination" is dangerous, especially for adolescents. One can commit suicide or even murder, because in retrospective it would have been the thing one couldn't do otherwise

Originally posted by TitusvE
If there is no such thing as free will, than having a discussion about it doesn't make sense. As people cannot discuss in other ways as they do, we can better just shut up. Trying to prove the non-existence of free will also doesn't make sense. We will find the proof or not, no matter if we try hard or just sit on our ass.

Therefore, it is just better t ...[text shortened]... urder, because in retrospective it would have been the thing one couldn't do otherwise

You know the answer, therefore it's pointless to discuss?
Oh, where have I heard this before? 😕

Originally posted by TitusvE
If there is no such thing as free will, than having a discussion about it doesn't make sense. As people cannot discuss in other ways as they do, we can better just shut up. Trying to prove the non-existence of free will also doesn't make sense. We will find the proof or not, no matter if we try hard or just sit on our ass.

I don't understand your logic here at all. You seem to think nothing meaningful can be said on the matter. Why?

But more importantly, what do you take 'free will' to mean?

Your uncomfortableness with determinism seems to be founded on a feeling of lack of control, but that is not necessarily so. Surely if your decisions are not deterministic, then they must necessarily be random ie you have no control over them. Or do you have an alternative?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You know the answer, therefore it's pointless to discuss?
Oh, where have I heard this before? 😕

If you believe in absolute determinism, then you should also believe that the fact, that you believe this, was also a deterministic result. The same can be said with my non-deterministic believe.
So what is then the use of discussing as our opinions are just determined by atomistic motions and some other physics. We could also just not discuss the whole thing in that case. If we "decide" that,
it is also the only decision we could have made from your deterministic point of view ;-)

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
"Meaningless"? Meaning for who? You can live a profoundly satisfying and virtuous life in which you feel as though your will is free even if you are programmed.

SORRY - what I meant was you can believe in one of two
possibilities; free will OR not free will

A. IF you believe there is no free will then life is TOTALLY meaningless

B. IF you believe there is free will then life is just PROBABLY meaningless

Originally posted by twhitehead
How does free will give meaning to life?

I dont know.

I never said it did.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't understand your logic here at all. You seem to think nothing meaningful can be said on the matter. Why?

But more importantly, what do you take 'free will' to mean?

Your uncomfortableness with determinism seems to be founded on a feeling of lack of control, but that is not necessarily so. Surely if your decisions are not deterministic, then t ...[text shortened]... y must necessarily be random ie you have no control over them. Or do you have an alternative?

If you believe in absolute determinism, then anything you do, in retrospect, was the only thing you could have done. Even believing in determinism, just saying nonsense, or not being sensitive to somebodies other argument is also determined. So by not waisting time on these discussions you spare a lot of energy and, in retrospect, there is no regret because it was the only thing you could have done (if you decide to do that).... and so you can formulate another dozen of paradoxes on determinism.

You can never proof determinism is incorrect, but it becomes a useless vision because of the many paradoxes. I believe that taking a decision is partly deterministic (instinct, 'genetic' character,..) and partly thought/intelligence/wisdom, something different than artificial intelligence. Maybe random factors also play a role.

I think we should't make a mistake that once we understand the hydrogen atom, and even molecules, that after this everything can be understood from these building blocks, even human beings. If billion of molecules interact in some very specific structure, new physics migh happen that we don't see when studying individual molecules.

Als quantum mechanics has non-deterministic parts in it. There is even a role for the observer, a human being, in the Copenhage interpretation

Originally posted by wolfgang59
A. IF you [b]believe there is no free will then life is TOTALLY meaningless[/b]

I disagree - depending on what you mean by free will. I believe my decisions are somewhat deterministic. I do not believe life is totally meaningless.

Originally posted by TitusvE
So what is then the use of discussing as our opinions are just determined by atomistic motions and some other physics.

You are not making a lot of sense. Discussion our opinions would be just as useful or useless regardless of whether or not determinism is true and regardless of whether or not we believe it to be true.

Originally posted by TitusvE
I think we should't make a mistake that once we understand the hydrogen atom, and even molecules, that after this everything can be understood from these building blocks, even human beings. If billion of molecules interact in some very specific structure, new physics migh happen that we don't see when studying individual molecules.

So for you, free will is necessarily unknown science? Why?

Als quantum mechanics has non-deterministic parts in it. There is even a role for the observer, a human being, in the Copenhage interpretation
I am quite well aware that quantum mechanics implies a certain amount of random input in the universe. But is that free will? Surely that would be worse than determinism?
By your logic we shouldn't even be discussing this (or anything for that matter) as your comments are based on random input.