Originally posted by KellyJay
When I think of being forced to make a choice I'm looking at it from both
internal and external forces. As I was pointing out my lust and desires are
internal, the need to fit in is internal as well, the HERD or other forces that
are outside of my control are the external ones. I was covering these in
my discussion with you as well. If those forces are ...[text shortened]... what else is there that
is or could cause you or anyone else to act one way or another.
Kelly

I see our brains as a computer program which takes as inputs all the various pressures which may be both internal and external as you mentioned - though I would add our memories and experience as very strong factors.
But ultimately I do not think that all those pressures guarantee a given choice, ie there is an element of randomness.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I see our brains as a computer program which takes as inputs all the various pressures which may be both internal and external as you mentioned - though I would add our memories and experience as very strong factors.
But ultimately I do not think that all those pressures guarantee a given choice, ie there is an element of randomness.

Exactly how do you define "random"? For me if I'm travelling down the
road in my car and look along side of my car and see rocks all over the
the place without any pattern to them I'd call that rock placement a
random placement; however, if I saw a bunch of rocks that were lined up
in such away that I could make out letters and words like "Welcome to"
add some towns name that is not a random placement of rocks. Those
rocks were laid out with a purpose, by design, with intent! You should not
use the word "random" when what you are talking about are just simply
things done with intent that you cannot find a reason for!

What you are attempting to do is look for a cause and not finding one you
are attempting to take things done with intent and purpose and desribe
them with a word that implies no intent and no purpose, because you
cannot find a forced cause for it. The reason is simply will in action and
that sets us apart from computer programs and computers, and for that
matter even animals, as we can change our ways and repent if we
choose to sometimes without help, some times with help, and sometimes
with a lot of help.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Exactly how do you define "random"?

Without cause and impossible to predict.

For me if I'm travelling down the road in my car and look along side of my car and see rocks all over the the place without any pattern to them I'd call that rock placement a random placement; however, if I saw a bunch of rocks that were lined up in such away that I could make out letters and words like "Welcome to" add some towns name that is not a random placement of rocks. Those rocks were laid out with a purpose, by design, with intent! You should not use the word "random" when what you are talking about are just simply things done with intent that you cannot find a reason for!
Correct. A sign announcing a town is not entirely random. It clearly has some deterministic causes. But nevertheless, it may contain random components ie its exact placement may be arbitrary, the colors of paint used may differ from sign to sign etc.

What you are attempting to do is look for a cause and not finding one you
are attempting to take things done with intent and purpose and desribe
them with a word that implies no intent and no purpose,
Not at all. If things are done with intent and purpose then that surely is a cause. When I use the term random it is to describe those decisions which are not done with intent and purpose, or more commonly a component of decisions done largely but not entirely with intent and purpose.

...because you cannot find a forced cause for it.
Yes, when intent and purpose do not force the decision then there must either be some other reason, or the result is random.

The reason is simply will in action and that sets us apart from computer programs and computers,
In what way?

and for that matter even animals,
Now I don't get you at all. My cat has just as much 'will' as we do.

as we can change our ways and repent if we choose to sometimes without help, some times with help, and sometimes with a lot of help.
Kelly
And you believe my cat cannot?
And when you change your ways without help, what causes you to do so? Surely, there either is a cause, or there isn't.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Surely if we can predict the future - even at a minimum, then information has flown backwards in time?

I missed this post.

I can't speak from a physics point of view but regarding your point 2) the way I find helpful is to take a probabilistic view of the future. When predicting the future, you construct an expectation of future states based on the information you have up to the present. Maybe some notation helps clarify what I mean.

You are predicting the state of variable x at point t in time (define t=0 as the present). This variable can assume S values at time t+1 that we call states*, with x(s) being the value of x in state s. Now, let's call the information set available in at time t as Omega(t).

You can then construct probabilities of being each state conditional on the information at time 0. This we can call p(s|Omega(0)).

Your prediction can then be seen as an expected value conditional on present information: the sum for all s of p(s|Omega(0)).x(s)

So E(x|Omega(0)) is your prediction and as you can see this can be constructed with the information available at time 0 and, importantly, therefore does not add any new information and does not alter the set Omega(0). So no information has flown backwards in time.

Or this is how I see it, at least. 😕
*I'm assuming a discrete number of states, but can be continuous

Originally posted by Palynka
Or this is how I see it, at least. 😕

What I am trying to understand is how this differs from our view of the past.
Based on information available to us now, we can 'predict' the past. In some cases, our predictions can not be accurate because there simply isn't enough information - hence the uncertainty principle and quantum mechanics.

From this view of things, the only reason we can predict the past better than the future is the second law which dictates that the future is more disordered than the past.

From the above view of things is information actually only travelling in one direction, and is it travelling at all?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Without cause and impossible to predict.

[b]For me if I'm travelling down the road in my car and look along side of my car and see rocks all over the the place without any pattern to them I'd call that rock placement a random placement; however, if I saw a bunch of rocks that were lined up in such away that I could make out letters and words like "Welc thout help, what causes you to do so? Surely, there either is a cause, or there isn't.

"Correct. A sign announcing a town is not entirely random. It clearly has some deterministic causes. But nevertheless, it may contain random components ie its exact placement may be arbitrary, the colors of paint used may differ from sign to sign etc."

[/b]Okay I give up we are not going to go anywhere with this.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay I give up we are not going to go anywhere with this.
Kelly

Why not? Are we failing to communicate? Are we incapable of communicating? I just don't understand why it is so hard for us to see each others point of view on this matter.
I am not just trying to win an argument, or prove a point, I genuinely believe what I am saying and want to understand why others do not. What is it that you see that I don't? What is it about 'will' that is not random nor deterministic? To me that just doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why not? Are we failing to communicate? Are we incapable of communicating? I just don't understand why it is so hard for us to see each others point of view on this matter.
I am not just trying to win an argument, or prove a point, I genuinely believe what I am saying and want to understand why others do not. What is it that you see that I don't? What is it about 'will' that is not random nor deterministic? To me that just doesn't make sense.

We are communicating, but you are reaching here to the point I don't see
anything that can be said to sway you. I said that rocks were selected and
choosen to make a sign, you say there was still something still random
about that and went looking for some miner detail the selector may not
have worried about in making their selection. They choose the rocks and the
colors it was a choice, an act of will, there was nothing random about it.
I'm sure you'll have another reason why you think there was some element
of random to it, but I no longer have the desire to continue this discussion.
So I choose to end my part of it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
They choose the rocks and the colors it was a choice, an act of will, there was nothing random about it.

And I have no object to that in principle. I have already stated that I believe that the decision itself had elements of randomness in it, but it is not essential to anything I am saying.
If there was truly nothing random about the decision as you claim, then why do you shy away from calling it determined? Surely that is the only possible conclusion.

So I choose to end my part of it.
Kelly
And I still don't understand why you wish to end it, but it is your choice and I can't force you to stay.