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  1. Zugzwang
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    04 Jan '19 23:361 edit
    The USA has made it illegal for NASA to cooperate with China in space exploration.
    (And the USA vetoed China's participation in the international space station.)

    http://www.reallycoolblog.com/the-least-realistic-part-of-the-martian-china-and-why-that-matters/

    "In April 2011, the 112th Congress of the United States of America
    passed Public Law 112-55, SEC. 539. Written into this law was language
    which stated the following:

    “None of the funds made available by this Act may be used for the
    National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) or the
    Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) to develop, design,
    plan, promulgate, implement, or execute a bilateral policy, program,
    order, or contract of any kind to participate, collaborate, or coordinate
    bilaterally in any way with China.”

    "This is, in effect, a blanket ban on any cooperation between the United
    States’ space program and China. So, while other space-fearing nations
    such as the UK and Russia are working jointly with China on a number
    of potential future missions, NASA is banning Chinese scientists from
    astronomy conferences. China’s calls for international cooperation
    on a future space station get no response from NASA."

    "NASA does not like being barred from cooperating with China.
    The United States’ space agency has made that much clear time and
    time again. NASA scientists have boycotted past conferences in
    protest against the ban. The agency has broached the issue of
    cooperation with the Chinese to the White House on at least a number
    of occasions. NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden has written blog
    posts that implicitly hint at the need for future cooperation with China
    in space activities. Bolden went as far as to say that the ban on
    Sino-American cooperation in space was “temporary” during the
    recent International Astronautical Conference – about as thinly
    veiled a statement of hope that a U.S. government employee
    required to represent American policy during international events
    can make, given the circumstances."

    "There is a significant contradiction in the United States continuing
    to refuse to work with China on any matters related to space, even
    if they are for a purely civil, exploratory purpose, while also declaring
    itself the world’s leading space-fearing [sic] power. Meanwhile,
    other space players, such as Russia and the European Space Agency,
    with whom the United States will gladly work, are looking toward
    China for possible joint missions in the future."
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    05 Jan '19 04:07
    I think China just landed a probe on the back side of the Moon
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    05 Jan '19 16:50
    @athousandyoung said
    I think China just landed a probe on the back side of the Moon
    You THINK? Geese, Do you think that was fake news?
    Seriously, funny part is Chinese news did not put it up on front pages, like 4th page down the list.

    It might have something to do with the US having several probes driving around Mars and just taken close ups of Pluto and this little rock Ultima Thule 4 billion miles away which would seem to overshadow the admittedly great achievement of China.

    It really is a shame we don't cooperate in space with China. Maybe now that they have shown their own licks now we can start operations with them.

    Maybe that won't happen till Trump is kicked out and a real person becomes POTUS.

    I imagine his so-called 'space force' was designed as propaganda to counter China's moves into space.
    China has a LOT more money to put into space projects than anything Russia can do right now since Russia financially is right in there with Italy on GNP.....
  4. Zugzwang
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    05 Jan '19 22:02
    @sonhouse said
    You THINK? Geese, Do you think that was fake news?
    Seriously, funny part is Chinese news did not put it up on front pages, like 4th page down the list.

    It might have something to do with the US having several probes driving around Mars and just taken close ups of Pluto and this little rock Ultima Thule 4 billion miles away which would seem to overshadow the admittedl ...[text shortened]... n anything Russia can do right now since Russia financially is right in there with Italy on GNP.....
    "It really is a shame we don't cooperate in space with China."
    --Sonhouse

    NASA scientists and engineers don't object to cooperating in space with China.
    But American politicians and their (often racist) supporters do object.

    "In April 2011, the 112th Congress of the United States of America
    passed Public Law 112-55, SEC. 539. Written into this law was language
    which stated the following:

    “None of the funds made available by this Act may be used for the
    National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) or the
    Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) to develop, design,
    plan, promulgate, implement, or execute a bilateral policy, program,
    order, or contract of any kind to participate, collaborate, or coordinate
    bilaterally in any way with China.”

    This law was passed when the US President was Barack Obama.
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    05 Jan '19 22:17
    @Duchess64
    I think the US mind-set conflates "competitor" with "enemy". And
    China is the America's biggest competitor in many areas. Shame ...

    Of course Mr. Trump promotes this view with his zero-sum bias.
  6. Zugzwang
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    05 Jan '19 22:481 edit
    @wolfgang59 said
    @Duchess64
    I think the US mind-set conflates "competitor" with "enemy". And
    China is the America's biggest competitor in many areas. Shame ...

    Of course Mr. Trump promotes this view with his zero-sum bias.
    Even during the Cold War (1975), the USA was ready to cooperate with the USSR
    in the Apollo-Soyuz project. But the USA absolutely refuses to cooperate with China today.

    One motivation may be the American racist belief that the Chinese are incapable of
    developing original technology (Carly Florina, a former CEO of Hewlett-Packard,
    said so in 2016) while Americans (Is no US technology developed by ethnic Chinese?)
    have nothing to learn from the Chinese, so all cooperation between the USA and
    China must be to the one-sided advantage of the Chinese (who have to 'steal secrets' ).

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/far-side-moon-china/579349/

    "Why the Far Side of the Moon Matters So Much
    China’s successful landing is part of the moon’s long geopolitical history."

    I suspect that many Americans, particularly politicians, will not celebrate China's
    moon landing as an achievement for humankind but rather they will loathe it
    (if not also making racist put-downs) as a potential threat from the 'Yellow Peril'.

    Derrick Bell, an African American professor of law at Harvard, once wrote that if
    intelligent extraterrestial life forms landed in the USA, the racist US government
    might well urge them to take the entire African American population with them to
    their home planet in order to get rid of all African Americans.

    If intelligent extraterrestial life forms arrived on Earth, then would not the USA prefer
    to ally with them in a war against China rather than with China in a war against the non-humans?
  7. Standard memberDeepThought
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    08 Jan '19 11:59
    @duchess64 said
    The USA has made it illegal for NASA to cooperate with China in space exploration.
    (And the USA vetoed China's participation in the international space station.)

    http://www.reallycoolblog.com/the-least-realistic-part-of-the-martian-china-and-why-that-matters/

    "In April 2011, the 112th Congress of the United States of America
    passed Public Law 112-55, SEC. 539. Writ ...[text shortened]... ited States will gladly work, are looking toward
    China for possible joint missions in the future."
    space-fearing nations?
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    08 Jan '19 17:21
    @deepthought said
    space-fearing nations?
    Well, they would LOVE a joint mission in Colorado.....
  9. Zugzwang
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    09 Jan '19 01:33
    @deepthought said
    space-fearing nations?
    What's the difference between 'God-fearng' and 'God-faring' peoples?
  10. Zugzwang
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    19 Jan '19 22:49
    Now that China has succeeded in doing something (landing on the far side of the moon)
    that NASA has not, NASA's ready to cooperate with China while staying paranoid
    (as American politicians demand) about transferring technology to the 'inferior' Chinese.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/19/nasa-work-chinas-space-agency-change-4-lunar-research/

    "Nasa to work with China's space agency on Chang'e-4 lunar research"

    "The collaboration requires Nasa to navigate a strict legal framework in the
    US aimed at preventing a technology transfer to China ..."

    "The collaboration requires Nasa to make assurances to Congress that no
    US technology will be transferred to China."
  11. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Jan '19 17:38
    @duchess64 said
    Now that China has succeeded in doing something (landing on the far side of the moon)
    that NASA has not, NASA's ready to cooperate with China while staying paranoid
    (as American politicians demand) about transferring technology to the 'inferior' Chinese.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/19/nasa-work-chinas-space-agency-change-4-lunar-research/

    "Nasa to work ...[text shortened]... requires Nasa to make assurances to Congress that no
    US technology will be transferred to China."
    One thing in your implied criticism of the US in this regard is one thing just found: Some Chinese companies, when sent a computer or laptop design, are adding tiny chips buried in the circuitry, recently proven, that allows that computer or laptop or whatever to be queried by Chinese sources to learn all the keyboard taps and such, the places visited on the net and so forth and to be able to tap into ALL the data stored on whatever devices are hooked up ATT, hard drives, thumb drives, floppies, whatever.

    THAT is why the US is critical of cooperating with China.
    BTW, this is not speculation, it has just been proven. Not ALL electronics but enough to warrant extra scrutiny when a Chinese computer or other device is shipped to anyone anywhere on the planet.
    Very cynical development if you ask me, which you undoubtedly won't......
  12. Zugzwang
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    21 Jan '19 00:104 edits
    @sonhouse said
    One thing in your implied criticism of the US in this regard is one thing just found: Some Chinese companies, when sent a computer or laptop design, are adding tiny chips buried in the circuitry, recently proven, that allows that computer or laptop or whatever to be queried by Chinese sources to learn all the keyboard taps and such, the places visited on the net and so forth ...[text shortened]... anywhere on the planet.
    Very cynical development if you ask me, which you undoubtedly won't......
    It works both ways.

    China's presidential airliner (equivalent of Air Force One) was made by Boeing.
    Some years ago, it had to be returned to the USA for a major overhaul by Boeing.
    Afterward, the Chinese discovered--by taking apart most of the airliner--that the
    Americans had implanted hundreds of spying devices in it. (The Chinese probably missed some.)
    I suspect that few Americans believe that there's anything wrong with that kind of espionage.

    The USA already has done its utmost to stop every country from cooperating with China in space.
    So if the USA wants to continue NASA's non-cooperation, the Chinese regard that as normal.
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    21 Jan '19 03:394 edits
    As an apologist for the Chinese, you don't seem to understand the depth of what they did with those hidden chips. They were not just meant for spying on US technology. They were in computers all around the planet. The US has arguably the best technology but there are other tech powers in the world and they were after them ALL.

    You should understand the difference between espionage and intellectual property theft.

    I would assume you would be on America's ass if it was US thieving from China or maybe Germany thieving from Russia, that would be ok, but China stealing technology and business cycle information is ok, but bad if the US or Germany does it.

    Those planes bugged, if true, were done for political information not technology theft, a different order of spying.

    The US does not have literally millions of prisoners in 're-education camps' like in China so I suppose you will bring up the disgusting Trump doctrine of caging children, so the two dastardly deeds are equal in your eyes.

    A large city full of political prisoners is ok with you I assume.

    The present regime of China are not the friends of the US and they are actively forcing their way into Philippine waterways with the building of artificial islands fortified with military weapons. This is not a friendly gesture on the part of China, it is an obvious bid to capture natural resources by military might.

    I assume this also is ok with you. I also assume you praise the efforts, since you mentioned you are already proficient in Mandarin so if the world order changes to China you will be ready to join the communist party and be a good communist for the good of all.
  14. Zugzwang
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    21 Jan '19 22:37
    @sonhouse said
    As an apologist for the Chinese, you don't seem to understand the depth of what they did with those hidden chips. They were not just meant for spying on US technology. They were in computers all around the planet. The US has arguably the best technology but there are other tech powers in the world and they were after them ALL.

    You should understand the difference between ...[text shortened]... to China you will be ready to join the communist party and be a good communist for the good of all.
    The jingoistic American and fanatical Cold Warrior Sonhouse loves to embrace an
    extremely biased view of the world in which the USA (or its allies) are always right
    and its perceived enemies are always wrong.

    About everyone spies on everyone else. Sonhouse's claim or assumption of eternal
    American innocence is absurd. Indeed, the USA has a record of 'stealing' or copying
    foreign technology (including from the USSR) without paying for it or acknowledging it.

    Since 1949, as part of its Cold War against China, the USA has imposed an embargo
    against exporting advanced technology to China and usually done its utmost to
    stop other countries from exporting their advanced technology to China.
    Given that the USA never has treated China as a 'normal' country with regard to
    access to technology, it's understandable that China should respond by acting
    with great determination to break out of this US-imposed technological blockade.

    Israel was able to develop its first fighter aircraft, the Kfir, largely because it stole
    (through a spy) the complete blueprints and other technical documentation for
    the French Mirage V, on which the Kfir's design was based.

    I wrote nothing about my views on other issues toward China's government or its Communist Party.
    Sonhouse's absurd projections show only his extreme ignorance and prejudice as usual.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    22 Jan '19 16:49
    @duchess64 said
    The jingoistic American and fanatical Cold Warrior Sonhouse loves to embrace an
    extremely biased view of the world in which the USA (or its allies) are always right
    and its perceived enemies are always wrong.

    About everyone spies on everyone else. Sonhouse's claim or assumption of eternal
    American innocence is absurd. Indeed, the USA has a record of 'stealing' or ...[text shortened]... munist Party.
    Sonhouse's absurd projections show only his extreme ignorance and prejudice as usual.
    So, back to ad hominem. You are free to say what you will but it does not prove anything about my Jingoist leanings as you seem to think. I said there is a difference between political spying and intellectual theft. If you don't understand the difference you need to study the two. Do you deny China engages in intellectual theft not for political gain but simply for money, to be able to duplicate some gadget invented in some western country, not just the US. Chinese government engages in intellectual theft of every western country in the world.

    If you think otherwise, show your supporting evidence, otherwise stop with the ad hominems.

    You already said you would be ready to accept a Chinese communist world order, implied when you said your Mandarin is very good.

    If you accept the idea of a world dominated by Chinese communist ideology, then just come out and say it. I don't care one way or the other, your opinion is yours and yours alone but don't hide your opinions otherwise we have to make our own assumptions not being telepathic.
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