clan suggestions

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
There you go again. I say padger doesn't understand the ELO system, and you just assume that I support the ELO system. (Even though you noticed that I didn't vote for it, which ought to have shown you your own mistake!)

You are so incredibly dense. Please do us all a favor and go bang your head into a brick wall repeatedly. Maybe that will dislodge all the sludge between your neurons.

banging my head against a brick wall would be less painful than reading your lame posts,

advanced mind? you are so thick you forgot to vote for the ELO doh doh doh

Originally posted by padger
Come on then you who believe you have a brain far beyond everybody else
What is the way to solve the clan crisis and make it better for all ?

Nope, as I just said last page, I've run out of patience waiting for Russ to make changes.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Nope, as I just said last page, I've run out of patience waiting for Russ to make changes.

Just as I thought all mouth and trousers
Criticise everyone else but offer nothing to help

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Nope, as I just said last page, I've run out of patience waiting for Russ to make changes.

Russ has already made some great changes
Punished cheats
Banned mctayto from clan games although I would have just suspended him for a month with a final warning
Got rid of the dead player loop hole

What more do you want?
You moan about Russ being slow so you should have plenty time to come up with an idea. Advanced mind what a load of bull

every game in a clan challenge should count

- gross/net calculation can be eliminated
- early resignation becomes detrimental

a player's clan rating should be separate from the site rating

- this may help to correct artificial ratings
- a player's true clan rating will manifest with fair challenges

a clan rating system may not be necessary if the first two suggestions are adopted

it can be a useful measure, but only if it's augmented with additional metrics

if our final rating is based on points and clan rating, it might solve the stagnation problem

the work has already been done for the clan rating, there's nothing to lose

we can let it run experimentally this year, and see how it might be incorporated

Originally posted by Giannotti
every game in a clan challenge should count

- gross/net calculation can be eliminated
- early resignation becomes detrimental

a player's clan rating should be separate from the site rating

- this may help to correct artificial ratings
- a player's true clan rating will manifest with fair challenges

a clan rating system may not be necessary if ...[text shortened]... hing to lose

we can let it run experimentally this year, and see how it might be incorporated

Let's try another approach.

Let's put out a new list of the perceived problems.
In the business world, we need a problem statement before we go into solution mode.

Reason I suggest we back up is we now have an opportunity to approach this with a clear slate.
Now that we have eliminated the source of the hysteria, innuendo, false accusations and the wing flapping by a few individuals in general.

Your ideas have merit.
But let's not chase Russ around in circles again.
I don't think he has the appetite for it now.

We don't want to blindly implement solutions when we don't have a real idea or extent of the problem.

For now, I can say that Russ has implemented a data correction mechanism for issuing penalties.
He has put in an edit to weed out inactive players and suspicious short games.

Aside from that, let's come up with a problem statement listing what we think are issues.
Analysis will then determine the extent and scope of the issue.
(Example of scope is sandbagging. Does it exist only in clan play ? Does it exist only in RHP ? etc...)

Russ, with input from us can determine the scope of the improvement. Does he completely rewrite the feature or make make modest improvements to it ?

That depends on the extent of the issues.

But anyways listing the issues is the best first step.

I think that the first thing that needs looking at is the drawn challenge.

At the moment points are awarded to both clans in the event of a tie. In a 5 player challenge each clan receives 5 points each. This can encourage some clans to play for draws e.g. whatever name Lemondrop has called his clan today.

If a clan loses a challenge 6-4 the losing team receives minus 10 points but if they draw 5 all they receive 5 points, a turnaround of 15 points in this instance.

I believe that in the event of a drawn challenge no points are awarded. This would stop some clans using this practice to bolster their points and not help or hinder clans who's challenges finish in a draw. It would simply nullify the challenge.

This is one issue that could be discussed and tackled quite easily and after discussion for and against sent for a vote by clan leaders. It should not be a hard programming problem for Russ to change

Originally posted by radioactive69
I think that the first thing that needs looking at is the drawn challenge.

At the moment points are awarded to both clans in the event of a tie. In a 5 player challenge each clan receives 5 points each. This can encourage some clans to play for draws e.g. whatever name Lemondrop has called his clan today.

If a clan loses a challenge 6-4 the losin ...[text shortened]... sent for a vote by clan leaders. It should not be a hard programming problem for Russ to change

Why should the losing team get minus 10 points for a loss of one game and the winning team get 10 points
That is a difference of 20 points for the loss of one game
The winning team should get 6 points plus a bonus for winning the challenge
The losing team should get 4 points

Originally posted by padger
Why should the losing team get minus 10 points for a loss of one game and the winning team get 10 points
That is a difference of 20 points for the loss of one game
The winning team should get 6 points plus a bonus for winning the challenge
The losing team should get 4 points

Yes but lets tackle one thing at a time.

In this case points awarded when there is a drawn challenge.

I feel that there should be no points awarded in a drawn challenge under the current system. This will stop a small percentage of clans collaborating to initiate draws being beneficial to both.

collusion can enter clan play in the form of a draw (granted)(and ummm... yeesh)

i welcome draws

yes, i try to create challenges that weigh in my favor (i'm trying to win)
but i try to keep them close enough that they will be accepted by other leaders

many of the points my clan achieves come though draws
to me, that means that the challenge was fair to the point of equality
well done to both clan leaders, well done to all the players, points awarded

i'd like to see no negative points for a loss
if you can't lose by trying, clan leaders can be bolder with their challenges
this might invigorate clan play

draws should count for something, but we can adjust the count
make that number too low... goodbye fair challenges, hello stagnation
we'd be foolish to offer or accept a challenge unless we're certain to win
a reasonable reward for a draw encourages fair challenges

i think everybody agrees the wins count, but here again we can adjust the count

the clan rating experiment showed us all how delicate the balance is
we have to design the point system carefully or we'll have a mess

Originally posted by Giannotti
collusion can enter clan play in the form of a draw (granted)(and ummm... yeesh)

i welcome draws

yes, i try to create challenges that weigh in my favor (i'm trying to win)
but i try to keep them close enough that they will be accepted by other leaders

many of the points my clan achieves come though draws
to me, that means that the challenge was ...[text shortened]... l how delicate the balance is
we have to design the point system carefully or we'll have a mess

I think you have to have negative points or it just comes down to the clan who issues the most challenges wins.

If negative points are still on the board (which I believe they should be) then drawn challenges must count as no points. It's not real fair when a clan loses say 6-4 and gets negative 10 points but a clan that finishes 5-5 gets positive 5 points. Too big a turnaround.

If the consensus is that there are no negative points then yes points awarded for drawn ties would be fair.

Under the present system though points for drawn challenges should not be awarded

I keep asking this
No one has given me an answer
Tell me a game that takes away points already earned
And if there is one is it fair that a win against team A can be negated by a loss to team B

Originally posted by padger
I keep asking this
No one has given me an answer
Tell me a game that takes away points already earned
And if there is one is it fair that a win against team A can be negated by a loss to team B

You don't have to take away points if every team plays every other team an equal number of times.
That would constitute a league.

Clan system in its' current form doesn't force clans to play one another.

We had a system that didn't take away points for losing a challenge.
It was the Gross Points score you still on the clan tables today.

Problem with that metric was that a clan that, for example, won 200 challenges and
lost 600 could finish first ahead of a clan that won 150 challenges and lost 50.

You do see the problem with that, right ??
There is a little risk involved for a points deducted for losing a challenge.
Otherwise, this would just descend into a contest for which clan could set the most challenges.

The nearest example of deduction outside this site would be multiple choice tests where
there is a deduction for a wrong answer.
This to discourage guessing on a test.

Originally posted by radioactive69
I think that the first thing that needs looking at is the drawn challenge.

At the moment points are awarded to both clans in the event of a tie. In a 5 player challenge each clan receives 5 points each. This can encourage some clans to play for draws e.g. whatever name Lemondrop has called his clan today.

If a clan loses a challenge 6-4 the losin ...[text shortened]... sent for a vote by clan leaders. It should not be a hard programming problem for Russ to change

Funny you should mention Lemondrop.
His one player clan last year had a lot of drawn challenges with Easy Riders.
Win win for both clans who were trying to pad their points.

Not a lot of points compared to the 3 sisters .
But i guess the motto was every little bit helps.

Another little mini-collusion if you call it that.

I'm not pursuing that any further.
But it didn't go unnoticed.

Originally posted by padger
I keep asking this
No one has given me an answer
Tell me a game that takes away points already earned
And if there is one is it fair that a win against team A can be negated by a loss to team B

Technically zero points are earned until a challenge is over.
No individual match stands alone.
It is strictly a "team" match with a winner takes all prize.
Whether you give win point plus a bonus to the victor, or full points to victor and minus points to the loser,
It is still a TEAM match.

And the notion that there should be no penalty for losing a match is not smart either.
With nothing to lose, everyone goes crazy.
The way it is, both sides play to win 'the challenge".

The notion that all games should count...fine, award more points and play them all.
We get chided for not playing out the string when the outcome is already decided.
Give us a reason to play on....not a penalty for failure to do so. That is silly too.