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Originally posted by no1marauderAgreed. Or at the very least publish the subsection under which a person was banned - e.g. was Exy banned for using chess software during games, as opposed to a chess engine?
They SHOULD at least post their specific conclusions because:
1) The system is unjust as the accused is given no meaningful way to dispute the charges;
2) The system does not have the confidence of many members of the community as they are asked to take the Game Mods' assertions as gospel truth without being shown any colloborating fac ...[text shortened]... r the current, inquistional regime. An airing of testable findings would alleviate this concern.
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Why does anyone want [or need] to know the evidence....it's a matter of trust. There's no real reason for anyone but the "culprit" to have any grievance if they are not told why. And we don't know what they have been told when they were banned. You may know what the banned person SAYS they were banned for, but could you really believe whatever they told you by then.
I would be really happy if I was falsely accused of cheating with an engine, it'd prove to me at least that I was playing good.
Well I trust the gamemods to do the job fairly & squarely; there's no reason for them to do otherwise.
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveI have no more reason to blindly trust the Game Mods then I do to blindly trust accused (by the Game Mods) cheaters.
Why does anyone want [or need] to know the evidence....it's a matter of trust. There's no real reason for anyone but the "culprit" to have any grievance if they are not told why. And we don't know what they have been told when they were banned. You may know what the banned person SAYS they were banned for, but could you really believe whatever t ...[text shortened]... trust the gamemods to do the job fairly & squarely; there's no reason for them to do otherwise.
Originally posted by no1marauderBlind trust is asking a lot, especially considering that the game mods may have something to gain by banning certain players. Like 6 easy tournament wins over a bogie player, for example.
I have no more reason to blindly trust the Game Mods then I do to blindly trust accused (by the Game Mods) cheaters.
I'm not saying this is a factor in the banning, but its very hard to blindly trust a process, in which the team aren't necessarily impartial. And of course I'm not asking for the mods to be made impartial by not allowing them to play here.
D
How about this....
Provide non-specific evidence so that those with means can at least look at it.
Example:
Their is overwhelming evidence that JoeCheater used engine XXX. The use was found in Clan/Tourney/Clan League/All games. Use did not begin in those games until after the initial openings. Was only used against opponents of greater than 1800. One game where engine use was obvious is Game 99999.
That level of detail is not large. Doesn't show how the determination was made. It even allows some people to go and look at one game, but they have to make their own analysis. They can then look at other games.
Let's face it. When someone with only 1 or 2 losses is banned for cheating, few people are completely shocked. That user probably cheated in all of their games. When a user with lots of losses, spread out evenly, is banned, knowing any cheating pattern, Tourneys/Clans/Over 1800... helps people look and go, "Oh yeah".
Side note. I have faith in the Game Mods. I just want this info available so that people can look at it, say, "Hmmm, surprising and unfortunate," and move on.
Originally posted by Pie1120If you want to avoid post-banning analysis in the forums then some degree of proof needs to be made public or an unbiased trial is needed.
How about this....
I just want this info available so that people can look at it, say, "Hmmm, surprising and unfortunate," and move on.
One suggestion I have is...
BTW: sorry if this has already been suggested, I do not have time to read every forum post.
A small number of players are made privvy to the evidence. These players then have the power to appeal on behalf of the accused and act as defence in a trial in which the moderators act as prosecution. A jury could be selected from unbiasd players and both sides defence and prosecution would be able to reject a suggested juror. Divulging evidence to the public forums would be in itself a bannable offence to keep the leakage of evidence to minimum.
This method of trial has worked for many years in many countries.
Originally posted by Pie1120I would endorse this proposal on at least a trial basis to see if, in practice, it gives sufficient info for other members of the community to have a fair chance to assess the "cheating" determination, at least in part. Some disclosure is clearly needed: I would also request that the Mods make public not only specific findings as indicated above but any game analyses (if any) used in the determination so others with engines can check them. I do not believe that game analyses of public games by commercially available or freeware engines can be fairly characterized as "confidential information" as one Game Mod has claimed.
How about this....
Provide non-specific evidence so that those with means can at least look at it.
Example:
Their is overwhelming evidence that JoeCheater used engine XXX. The use was found in Clan/Tourney/Clan League/All games. Use did not begin in those games until after the initial openings. Was only used against opponents of greater than 1800 ...[text shortened]... available so that people can look at it, say, "Hmmm, surprising and unfortunate," and move on.
Originally posted by no1marauderSorry if you have answered this elsewhere, No1, but did you ever analyse Exy's games? Briefly, what were your conclusions?
I would endorse this proposal on at least a trial basis to see if, in practice, it gives sufficient info for other members of the community to have a fair chance to assess the "cheating" determination, at least in part. Some disclosure is clearly needed: I would also request that the Mods make public not only specific findings as indicated above but an ...[text shortened]... engines can be fairly characterized as "confidential information" as one Game Mod has claimed.
Originally posted by dottewellHe found no evidence that Exy cheated in their games. Bbarr came to the same finding regarding games between himself and Exy. Nyxie came to the same finding regarding games between herself and Exy. As far as I know, nobody has ever publicly cited a game in which Exy is claimed to have cheated, and every opponent of Exy's that has commented on the issue indicates no evidence of cheating in their games.
Sorry if you have answered this elsewhere, No1, but did you ever analyse Exy's games? Briefly, what were your conclusions?
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Originally posted by dottewellhttp://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=31233&page=3 halfway down the page for a summary of my analysis of my 12 games with Exy (over 500 non-opening book moves).
Sorry if you have answered this elsewhere, No1, but did you ever analyse Exy's games? Briefly, what were your conclusions?
I also analyzed a game of Exy's against Nyxie a while back and also found no evidence of engine use. I also analyzed yesterday Exy's win over Dave Tebb using the Crafty engine as suggested by another player here and my analysis finds use of an engine for any significant portion of that game highly unlikely. If you want to read my summary of my findings regarding that game, join the Contumelious Clan and go to the private forum thread "A Final Solution".
EDIT: OOPS; you're a non-subscriber and can't join clans. I'll repost it here.
EDITEDIT: From the CC private forum: Having examined Exy's lone victory in ten tries over Tebb and using Crafty 19.01 to analyze the game, the proof is overwhelming that he DID NOT use an engine for any significant part of this game. For starters, I find 45 of 63 moves to match Crafty's first choice or 71%; I do not find this matchup number extraordinary particulary in a game with an extended endgame where there were often a small number (or only one) decent move. Second there are moves in the game that would never have been picked by an engine but are understandable given human thought processes. The most clearcut is move 53 where Exy has a choice of winning the Rook and going to an ending with a Queen, Rook and Pawn v. a lone Queen or Queening immediately and leaving himself a Queen and Pawn v. Rook and Pawn ending. Crafty evaluates the first as the better move by over 4.00 pawn equivalents, but a human might very well opt for the latter (as Exy does) due to the general pain in the assness of trying to win a game with the enemy Queen on the board and the White King exposed. I also note that on both moves 59 and 61, Exy misses Qb7+ which leads directly to the win of Black's remaining pawn.
Originally posted by no1marauderAppreciated.
http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=31233&page=3 halfway down the page for a summary of my analysis of my 12 games with Exy (over 500 non-opening book moves).
I also analyzed a game of Exy's against Nyxie a while back and also found no evidence of engine use. I also analyzed yesterday Exy's win over Dave Tebb using the C ...[text shortened]... oth moves 59 and 61, Exy misses Qb7+ which leads directly to the win of Black's remaining pawn.
Presumably it's not possible for just 1 or 2 gamemods to have someone banned. Therefore there would have to be several of them "in on it" if they were banning people for other reasons.
As they were voted for and selected sort of randomly it seems highly unlikely that they would be doing what is,in effect cheating, themselves, by banning people unfairly.
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveI don't believe the Game Mods have any sinister reasons for the specific bannings and am sure that they sincerely believe that the individuals banned were cheating. But as to the correctness of their beliefs I have no way of knowing unless they provide me with specific information regarding at least their conclusion (and not "X cheated"😉.
Presumably it's not possible for just 1 or 2 gamemods to have someone banned. Therefore there would have to be several of them "in on it" if they were banning people for other reasons.
As they were voted for and selected sort of randomly it seems highly unlikely that they would be doing what is,in effect cheating, themselves, by banning people unfairly.
As an aside, the vote for the individual Game Mods was largely ignored by the Site Admins; besides Dave Tebb (who got the most votes but who was realistically going to be on the Game Mod team as soon as he indicated he was willing to volunteer) the other Game Mods appointed received far fewer votes than quite a few other "candidates". Just to set the record straight.
Originally posted by no1marauderGood point.
I don't believe the Game Mods have any sinister reasons for the specific bannings and am sure that they sincerely believe that the individuals banned were cheating. But as to the correctness of their beliefs I have no way of knowing unless they provide me with specific information regarding at least their conclusion (and not "X cheated"😉.
Personally I'm not convinced there is a need for all to know.
Maybe we should have an independant players representative mod to put the case for the defence and liaise with the other players.
Then again we would again have the same situation of having to trust his judgement. And so on and on....
Originally posted by Pie1120I cannot understand all this fuss about cheating. So what? It should be allowed and the board should have a help button to help you to get the upper hand so to speak.
We are forming a problem here. After a player is banned, it turns into a fight between those who "know" the player and insist that they did not cheat, versus those that believe in the system.
I think that the evidence should be made available, including the conclusion drawn. Right now, a player denies it, and if that player doesn't always use an engi ...[text shortened]... nly way for people to either realize that things are fair, or to see if a mistake has been made.
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Yes that was a load of b*ll*cks! Why the hell do people cheat in the first place is beyond me. Who are you cheating? Only yourself, and if you can't play a game withut cheating then people should be ashamed of themselves! I hate people who cheat at anything, and if I was playing somebody who was using 'an extra mind' then I'd rather know in the first place so I could resign immediately and stop wasting my time.
No doubt I shall be playing people who cheat at some time or another, as I like this site and have every intention of staying here for many years. So, if you are going to cheat when playing me, please do as I asked and let me know. Thanks