1. Standard memberthire
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    13 Jan '05 15:00
    I don't care much about all this cheating stuff (perhaps because I play 90% against personal friends), but I think big discussions are goning on here. I did not follow them and I am not willing to do so (and read some threads with 20 and more pages).

    Russ, could you sum up in some words what has been going on so far and what your future plans are? (perhaps in the anouncementsforum)

    I just read the thread about the "danguerous" cheat police (but it got lost, so I start a new one).
    I have nothing against it, but I think removing a cheater from the site is much too hard! Yes, it's in the terms of service, but what if the tos said "all cheaters should be killed" - would this give Russ the right to kill all cheaters? Not a very good example, but there is some truth in it (not all contracts are legal!).

    And I don't want to be removed by some funny policemen. I made a contract with Russ, I paid him, and not any other experianced chessplayer.

    How big is the "cheating problem"?

    What do you guys think?

    th
  2. Standard memberGatecrasher
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    13 Jan '05 15:232 edits
    Originally posted by thire
    I think removing a cheater from the site is much too hard!

    How big is the "cheating problem"?

    What do you guys think?
    th
    Here is an article about the exasperations of A.J.Goldsby and his experiences of cheating at ICC.

    http://www.angelfire.com/games3/AJs01Downloads/alaf2_expose-coti.html

    His case is that ICC are soft on cheaters because they don't want to lose revenue. But the policy is backfiring, because cheating is now so rampant that honest players are losing confidence.

    The problem with leniency is that people do not change their ways. They may reform, for a while, until the next time...

    In my opinion, banning is the only effective deterrant.

    Having said that, it is Russ, not the game mods who will decide on "punishment". The main purpose of the game mods is to advise Russ on the evidence.

    Your contract remains with him. He decides whether you are in breach, and what the redress is.
  3. Standard memberthire
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    13 Jan '05 15:30
    Originally posted by Gatecrasher
    Your contract remains with him. He decides whether you are in breach.
    Yes, I know.
    And it's not just me who promised not to cheat - he made some promises as well!
    th
  4. Standard memberSirUlrich
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    13 Jan '05 15:31
    Originally posted by Gatecrasher
    Here is an article about the exasperations of A.J.Goldsby and his experiences of cheating at ICC.

    http://www.angelfire.com/games3/AJs01Downloads/alaf2_expose-coti.html

    His case is that ICC are soft on cheaters because they don't want to lose revenue. But the policy is backfiring, because cheating is now so rampant that honest players are losing co ...[text shortened]... Russ on the evidence.

    Your contract remains with him. He decides whether you are in breach.
    If someone was falsely accused, tried by the police, found guilty and banned, would they sue Russ or the Cheat Police for defamation?
  5. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    13 Jan '05 15:321 edit
    Originally posted by thire
    Yes, I know.
    And it's not just me who promised not to cheat - he made some promises as well!
    th
    What?

    P

    Please let me know what Russ promised us, that might have anything to do with finding cheaters at RHP breaking the TOS.

  6. Standard memberthire
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    13 Jan '05 15:49
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    What?
    Well, I paid for something (the service that I can play here as much games as I want, participate in tunaments, play in clan leagues, post in the fora - just to name four things) 😉
    th
  7. Standard memberGatecrasher
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    13 Jan '05 15:49
    Originally posted by SirUlrich
    If someone was falsely accused, tried by the police, found guilty and banned, would they sue Russ or the Cheat Police for defamation?
    They could sue the Pope, but they would still get nowhere.

    And what would they sue for? Damages? Damage to what? The reputation of a fake username? The $20 subscription fee?

    Can you really see some big litigation firm getting excited over this?

    Come on, let's keep it real.
  8. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    13 Jan '05 15:51
    Originally posted by thire
    Well, I paid for something (the service that I can play here as much games as I want, participate in tunaments, play in clan leagues, post in the fora - just to name four things) 😉
    th
    And this has what to do with the part of the TOS that says not to use chess engines?

    P
  9. Standard memberthire
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    13 Jan '05 16:10
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    And this has what to do with the part of the TOS that says not to use chess engines?
    Did I say that it has something to do with??
    I said that I have a contract with Russ, I paid and he assured me of something.
    But all this does not meet the point of what I was discussing about...
    🙂
    th
  10. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    13 Jan '05 16:16
    Originally posted by thire
    I don't care much about all this cheating stuff (perhaps because I play 90% against personal friends), but I think big discussions are goning on here. I did not follow them and I am not willing to do so (and read some threads with 20 and more pages).

    Russ, could you sum up in some words what has been going on so far and what your future plans are? (perhaps ...[text shortened]... xperianced chessplayer.

    How big is the "cheating problem"?

    What do you guys think?

    th
    This is Russ' site what does killing someone have to do with the site? absolutely nothing, but banning someone does deal with the site. You can try to hide behind the contract but you forget that breaching the TOS is breaking the contract, so once you break it you no longer have any rights on the site, you have the right to get off this site and find a new one if you want to use an engine.
  11. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    13 Jan '05 16:25
    Originally posted by thire
    Did I say that it has something to do with??
    I said that I have a contract with Russ, I paid and he assured me of something.
    But all this does not meet the point of what I was discussing about...
    🙂
    th
    If what you said has nothing to do with the subject of the thread... why was it said?

    It sounded to me like you were saying:

    Russ asked us not to cheat, but he also said we can play at RHP.

    You've confused the issue by saying what you did say, (or perhaps it is just me who is confused?) and I just wanted answers as to why you brought that up.

    Yes, Russ promised us stuff, and we promised Russ stuff. Since these things were all said in the same thread, I thought they might have something to do with each other. Again, if they don’t, why was it said?

    P
  12. Joined
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    13 Jan '05 17:542 edits
    Originally posted by thire


    I just read the thread about the "dangerous" cheat police (but it got lost, so I start a new one).
    I have nothing against it, [b]but
    I think removing a cheater from the site is much too hard! Yes, it's in the terms of service, but ...[text shortened]... big is the "cheating problem"?

    What do you guys think?

    th[/b]
    Hi Thire-

    I can sum it up from a casual user's perspective:

    There seems to alot of animosity here. It's not what I would call a real friendly site. If you read the forums you will find thread after thread full of cheating accusations, insults, belligerence, etc. (clearly, some of the loudest complainers are possibly using engines themselves!), and in particular, some people have managed to dominate the forums so totally, and fill them so completely with outright accusation, anti-cheating paranoia, and innuendo, that they have become well-known, (probably well enough to even win a spot themselves in the game moderator popularity contest!). BTW- this "game moderator" -cheat police idea seems to be a direct result of this complaining, and all pervasive paranoia.

    Very early in my RHP membership I openly and honestly advertised for computer vs. computer matches in my profile. I received a friendly note from Russ asking not to solicit these computer matches anymore, because he did not want to encourage computer use in any way. I stopped immediately, drew my ogoing games, but to this day seem to have acquired a reputation (see trackhead21 and tmetzler's responses and innuendo to my thread "The “Cheat Police” is a bad & dangerous idea), even though my rating here is comparable to my USCF over-the-board rating.

    I personally am not against 'cheat police' at an Internet chess site, but here they've taken the unusual step of allowing the community to 'police itself'. The real scary thing here is the 'cheat police' will just be a group of amateur RHP players, like you and I...with no professional guidance, and little or no experience.

    Most sites, like the ICC, chessworld, etc. have fully-trained, experienced staff who investigate cheating claims fairly and effectively using the newest tools and technologies.

    Here, I would recommend you simply try to enjoy chess, avoid the forums, and just don't beat someone so badly, or play so well for so long that you're reported to the cheat police! (the result of which is completely unpredictable). If you do mange to remain undefeated here, or play very well, expect accusations/slurs/ and innuendo (as Ironman31 has long endured) , and then probably an eventual inquisition by the 'cheat police' with whom your fate would seem to rest.

    Norm
  13. Donationrichjohnson
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    13 Jan '05 18:491 edit
    Originally posted by Kranium
    Hi Thire-

    I can sum it up from a casual user's perspective:

    There seems to alot of animosity here. It's not what I would call a real friendly site. If you read the forums you will find thread after thread full of cheating accusatio ...[text shortened]... 'cheat police' with whom your fate would seem to rest.

    Norm
    Hi Norm,

    Welcome to the site. There's certainly a lot of animosity here, but also a lot of friendly people (they're just harder to notice). I've been a member here for a long time, and the level of nastiness in the forums seems to fluctuate over time. This is a somewhat-nasty time, but it's nothing compared to certain other past conflicts.

    As for the cheating issue, it is definitely a real problem, and not merely a result of the latest group of rabble rousers. The problem isn't just the fact that people cheat, it's also the fact that there's no recourse if you feel you're playing against a cheater, other than to avoid that person in the future. That used to be OK, but now with tournaments, clans and leagues, it doesn't work anymore.

    Also, the innuendo problem which you've identified is made worse by the lack of a formal cheating investigation procedure. There have been instances in the past where top players have resigned all of their games when accused of cheating. For a while Russ issued a gag order on all cheating discussions in the forums, but that didn't work so well.

    Soon, cheating accusations can be made in private to the cheat police (or "RHP justice league", if you prefer), rather than in the forums. This will prevent unsubstantiated innuendo in the forums, and still provide people with a way to deal with a situation where they feel they've been beaten by an engine.

    As for the fact that the cheat police will be "amateurs", if Russ hired a bunch of professional chess analysts, he'd have to raise subscription rates. Besides, there's a lot of bright and talented people here - and they'll gain experience over time. I think Russ will do everything he can to make sure the process is fair (and hopefully publicly post evidence of cheating when delivering a punishment so it may be reviewed by the community), and once the system is in place things will improve dramatically.

    Rich
  14. Standard memberGatecrasher
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    13 Jan '05 18:59
    Originally posted by Kranium
    Hi Thire-

    I can sum it up from a casual user's perspective:

    There seems to alot of animosity here. It's not what I would call a real friendly site. If you read the forums you will find thread after thread full of cheating accusations, insults, belligerence, etc. (clearly, some of the loudest complainers are possibly using engines themselves!), and ...[text shortened]... n eventual inquisition by the 'cheat police' with whom your fate would seem to rest.

    Norm
    There is a lot of truth in what you say.

    But a direct consequence of having the game mods is to banish these accusations and innuendos from the forums. And, in the process, halp make this a friendlier place. If anyone has suspicions or grievances they will soon have an effective vehicle for complaint.

    Another direct consequence of having the game mods is to protect the honest player. It is statistically impossible for a human player to replicate computer generated moves, move after move, game after game, by accident. Not even if that player is the world champion, himself.

    There is nothing wrong with winning every single game you play. You don't have to be a computer to do that. If you've played the game honestly, you have absolutely nothing to fear.

    I've analysed games from some of the top players at RHP. Their ability to match engine moves is no better or worse than any sub 1600 players.

    Playing well encompasses a far greater set of possible moves than the narrow matching of an engine.

    Imagine a bag of 500 "good" balls. Of these, 250 are marked "engine". Mix them up well, and pull 250 out of the bag. How many should be marked "engine"? More than 125? 50% chance. More than 130? 24% chance. More than 135? 10% chance. More than 150? 0.05% chance. More than 200? Statistically Impossible.

    So far from being completely unpredictable, the result of being reported to the "cheat police" will be wholly predetermined by whether one has played honestly or not.




  15. Joined
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    13 Jan '05 22:20
    Originally posted by Gatecrasher

    So far from being completely unpredictable, the result of being reported to the "cheat police" will be wholly predetermined by whether one has played honestly or not.




    Hi Gatecrasher-
    thx for the thoughtful response. However, I can't agree with your last statement, i.e. Nothing is always or 'wholly'. Even the best analysis by professionals can and will be flawed a significant amount of time. i.e. no system is perfect. Add to this - inexperience, bias, and simple human error, and we have a significant (or even large) # of mistakes.
    For ex: the US government spends many many millions of $ on trials, expert witnesses, and investigations in an effort to fairly try a criminal...yet many many people are wrongly convicted, even placed on death row. Are you saying the RHP 'cheat police' are somehow going to do better, with little or no guidence, experience, or expertise?

    Also- richjohnson said (in the post before yours) that there are many bright people here who can do the job...but how can the RHP community be sure these are the best (or even good) candidates?
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