sanctions against cheaters

Originally posted by Kranium
Hi Gatecrasher-
thx for the thoughtful response. However, I can't agree with your last statement, i.e. Nothing is always or 'wholly'. Even the best analysis by professionals can and will be flawed a significant amount of time. i.e. no system is perfect. Add to this - inexperience, bias, and simple human error, and we have a significant (or even large ...[text shortened]... do the job...but how can the RHP community be sure these are the best (or even good) candidates?

This may surprise you, but catching a Red Hot Pawn cheater is a lot easier then proving a murder. Ppl do not even realize just how easy it is and how quickly the problem could be fixed. The problem is, ICS is completely anonymous and most cannot see how someone cheats or cannot see how this could be proven, but it's pretty obvious through a simple investigation.

The Internet leaves your DNA evidence EVERYWHERE, if you commit a crime on the Internet, your chances of geting caught are a lot greater then if you commit a crime in real life. Most do not realize this. I'm not saying cheating on RHP is criminal, but just like police easily crack down on Internet criminals, catching a few RHP cheats isn't too difficult, even for "amateurs".

BTW, is there such thing as a professional cheat buster anyways? I'm sure all cheat busters started out as amateurs.

Originally posted by Gatecrasher
There is a lot of truth in what you say.

But a direct consequence of having the game mods is to banish these accusations and innuendos from the forums. And, in the process, halp make this a friendlier place. If anyone has suspicions or grievances they will soon have an effective vehicle for complaint.

Another direct consequence of having the game ...[text shortened]... heat police" will be wholly predetermined by whether one has played honestly or not.

I agree, there are A LOT of top RHP players who cheat, there are also A LOT, perhabs even more, players around 1600-1900 who cheat. This is what peeves me off the most, I accuse someone of cheating, and ppl say, "nobody with a 1600 rating cheats against another 1600 rater", and that's PURE BS! Cheaters WANT you to think that way. Why do you think Wooley purposely resigned his matches against Exy and Darvley when he was accused of engine using, and hovered around the 1700's for a long time? He could of reached a 2200 something rating if he really wanted to with his engine. He thought his 1700 rating and a few purpose loses was enough padding to prove he didn't cheat, so he could go on to win tournies uninterupted against top players and maybe win a prize in one particular tourney.

-------------------

The case of JW was pretty obvious, but he was a SUBTLE cheater, just an obvious subtle cheater who wasn't very good at cheating. There are tons of these 1600 (sometimes as low as 1500) to 1900 subtle cheaters all around the Internet. In JW case, the best he was, was a 1100 player legitamently, so being a 1700 rater was a super GM in his eyes, and he cheated to accomplish this.

Originally posted by Kranium
Hi Gatecrasher-
thx for the thoughtful response. However, I can't agree with your last statement, i.e. Nothing is always or 'wholly'. Even the best analysis by professionals can and will be flawed a significant amount of time. i.e. no system is perfect. Add to this - inexperience, bias, and simple human error, and we have a significant (or even large ...[text shortened]... do the job...but how can the RHP community be sure these are the best (or even good) candidates?

As Russ has indicated he will require "overwhelming" evidence of cheating before punishing a player, I think the idea that there's going to be some massive amount of honest players unfairly accused and convicted is farfetched. It is, of course, possible that this will happen no matter what the safeguards, but I don't believe the mere possibility of such an event outweighs the obvious advantages of having the Game Mods. The biggest advantage is that their mere existence will deter people from using engines and I regard that as a large benefit to the site.

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
... the contract, so once you break it you no longer have any rights on the site,....

I reallyfeel missunderstood. sorry.
What I want to say: I don't agree with what TRACKHEAD21 said. These consequences are much too hard I think: "Cheat once" means make a single computermove. Then you 'll have to leave the site? Perhaps you make 10.000 moves a year! Is this fair?
th

Okay, many interesting things have been said here. 🙂
I want to try to restate my optinion.

I have naver had any problems with cheaters.

I don't care about cheaters.

I think that beeing removed from this site when making a single computermove (let's say this is 100% proven!) is not fair.

Not like others, I have no problems with a cheat police. Even a cheat police that consits of RHP-members.
BUT: What are they allowed to do?
Who does control them? (This is one of the very important questions in democracy!)
Who is the juge? Russ? (He is "controlled" by the contcate we made and by the market, the reputation of the site, ...)
I want more transparency. These are things that we are all very concerned about, we all have the right to know what happens.

I don't care about contracts: I expect people to be fair as I am.
I think (I have no real reson for this) Russ is a "good guy" and he will try to be fair. I can't say this about the cheat police (whom I (and we all) don't know (yet) ).

I think that Russ will choose the right persons and that they are skilled enough to make their job.

But I think that unrecognized cheating should be very easy. Just don't be stupid and you'll make it. Perhaps you can't be No.1 at RHP, but why not have a rating of 2000 pts?
How? Well, I don't want to seduce people 😉 and I don't have to time and lust to post hints about how to cheat here.

@Kranium: I liked your post! 🙂

And again:
About what I wanted to discuss is punishment.
Kicking out cheaters is much too hard.
Just another example (not good, but better then the "killing" before! 😉 ):
I think we all agree that stealing is not good and thives should be punished. But how? Should we cut off their hands? In some contries of our wonderful world this happens every day. I don't think that this is good. There are better ways of treating the "stealing-problem".
As someone said before, cheating at RHP is not a crime, so please don't punish these guys the hardest way you can at RHP. Perhaps cheating 5 times and ignoring Russ emails is worth beeing kicked off, I don't know.
What's you opinion about this?
th

You don't have to throw someone off the site. Simply inform them that when their membership is up for renewal the application will be refused.

Just like the signs in pubs 'the management reserves he right to refuse custom'

Originally posted by Grandmaster bater
You don't have to throw someone off the site. Simply inform them that when their membership is up for renewal the application will be refused.

Just like the signs in pubs 'the management reserves he right to refuse custom'

A year is a very long time. A cheater with say 30 in progress games could do a lot of damage in that time. If this is the punishment they will face then what is to stop them continuing to cheat until their subscription ends?

Thire,

You say "I think that beeing removed from this site when making a single computermove (let's say this is 100% proven!) is not fair."

It is completely fair, but one move would be totally impossible to prove. Many moves over many games would be required. But just like you can't be slightly pregnant, you can't slightly cheat. You either do or you don't.

You say "Who does control them? (This is one of the very important questions in democracy!) Who is the juge? Russ? (He is "controlled" by the contcate we made and by the market, the reputation of the site, ...) I want more transparency. These are things that we are all very concerned about, we all have the right to know what happens."

Actually, this is Russ's website, and this is a dictatorship, not a democracy. And we have virtually no rights. The right to play is totally at Russ's discrection. The fact that he consults with users and conducts opinion polls is a privilege afforded to us, not a right.

You say "But I think that unrecognized cheating should be very easy. Just don't be stupid and you'll make it. Perhaps you can't be No.1 at RHP, but why not have a rating of 2000 pts? How? Well, I don't want to seduce people and I don't have to time and lust to post hints about how to cheat here."

Just as well. Psychologically, for cheaters, controlling their habit is very hard. I'm not saying it will be impossible to avoid detection, just a lot more difficult than you think.

You say "About what I wanted to discuss is punishment. Kicking out cheaters is much too hard."

Well, compared to cutting off hands, its quite lenient, really.

"As someone said before, cheating at RHP is not a crime, so please don't punish these guys the hardest way you can at RHP. Perhaps cheating 5 times and ignoring Russ emails is worth beeing kicked off, I don't know."

Wonderful, so when a cheater is found out, he is politely informed that he is only allowed to be caught cheating four more times, and then only then will he be kicked off. Much easier to put up a sign, "Cheaters welcome!"

And in all of this, where is the concern for honest players who come to this site to play HUMANS? Don't they have any rights? What purpose is served by being crushed by a GM level computer program... when they thought they were playing someone of similar ability?

Why should anyone have to put up this cheating?

Enough is enough!

Originally posted by Gatecrasher
What purpose is served by being crushed by a GM level computer program... when they thought they were playing someone of similar ability?

Why should anyone have to put up this cheating?

Enough is enough!

Gatecrasher-
If there are people here using GM level computers, as you say...where are all the GM level ratings? Aren't most of the engines rated 2700 or better? Since this is correspondence chess...shouldn't the ratings be even higher (because there is so much time to analyze)?

Perhaps there are so many engine users the results are leveling the player field?
I have seen many players have something in their profile like "I use books and databases, but won't if you ask me"..including some of the top-rated here. Well correct me if I'm wrong, don't these 'databases' (like Chessbase), inlcude Fritz and other engines? Why is that ok?

Originally posted by Kranium
Gatecrasher-
If there are people here using GM level computers, as you say...where are all the GM level ratings? Aren't most of the engines rated 2700 or better? Since this is correspondence chess...shouldn't the ratings be even higher (because there is so much time to analyze)?

Perhaps there are so many engine users the results are leveling the play ...[text shortened]... 't these 'databases' (like Chessbase), inlcude Fritz and other engines? Why is that ok?

RHP ratings have nothing to do with ratings from other systems. You can only get a rating of 2700 if you are beating up on people rated 2700. Here at RHP the top players are rated around 22 or 23 hundred...

The ratings here at RHP started sometime in 2001 all at 1200... and go up from there. If you are talking about USCF ratings, they started a long time before that, so they will be higher.

Years from now, RHP ratings might go up to 2700, but you wouldn't be able to compare those ratings to any other system, as they are separate from that system.

Book use probably now includes games played by engines, I am sure. People even use their own games against computers as book... all depends how extensive your book is I guess... but there will always be moves that get you out of any book. The cheaters might claim otherwise... that is part of cheating.

P

Hello fellows,

I am quiet a freshman on this site... but as for cheating my opinion is that if someone wants to cheat... let him go for it... if he gets his confidence, pride and selfesteem out of wrapping up victory after victory by cheating who cares...
If we find out or not is not what counts... the only person that is important in knowing that he is cheating and blinds him and others with his performance is the cheater himself...

So I just pity those who think they count more to our community if they win by cheating than those who play an honest game and loose...

Originally posted by Kranium
Gatecrasher-
If there are people here using GM level computers, as you say...where are all the GM level ratings? Aren't most of the engines rated 2700 or better? Since this is correspondence chess...shouldn't the ratings be even higher (because there is so much time to analyze)?

Perhaps there are so many engine users the results are leveling the play ...[text shortened]... 't these 'databases' (like Chessbase), inlcude Fritz and other engines? Why is that ok?

One's ratings depend upon the ratings of one's opponents. On a site like RHP they can only ever be relative, not absolute. Who is to say that the standard of chess at RHP 2300 is not equivalent to FIDE 2600? We just don't know, becuase the pool of players at RHP is relatively small.

No, a database does not include an engine. A database is a collection of past games. A library, if you like, into which, under the rules of correspondence chess, it is permissable to delve. Useful, provided you are still in the opening phase of a game. Useless beyond that. But even with a database you still have to choose the best move to play.

An engine is completely different beast. It takes all that pesky decision making away and decides the matter for you.

Originally posted by dooser2004
Hello fellows,

I am quiet a freshman on this site... but as for cheating my opinion is that if someone wants to cheat... let him go for it... if he gets his confidence, pride and selfesteem out of wrapping up victory after victory by cheating who cares...
If we find out or not is not what counts... the only person that is important in knowing that h ...[text shortened]... nt more to our community if they win by cheating than those who play an honest game and loose...

Check these pages out....

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/8655/ENGLISH/Main_ENG.htm


Especially this one....

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/8655/ENGLISH/Part5_ENG.htm#Top


Gatecrasher turned me onto this page from this thread...

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=18510&page=2

P

Originally posted by dooser2004
Hello fellows,

I am quiet a freshman on this site... but as for cheating my opinion is that if someone wants to cheat... let him go for it... if he gets his confidence, pride and selfesteem out of wrapping up victory after victory by cheating who cares...
If we find out or not is not what counts... the only person that is important in knowing that h ...[text shortened]... nt more to our community if they win by cheating than those who play an honest game and loose...

Actually, this may surprise you, but a lot of ppl CARE about this game, have a love for it, like say, Canadians have a love for hockey, ahd honestly work hard at this. Say, you have a young 1900 OTB, age 18, player who decides to work hard to become a GM within a year or two.

I like his chances, he has great potential to be that GM, so he gets as many games as he can through ICS chess, he needs the practical practice of playing many games. The problem is, ICS is filled with cheaters who randomly beat the crap out of him, while they may in fact make him a better OTB player in the long run, to play better opponents, chess is a sport like any other, phycology is more important. So, let's say that young 18 year old 1900 OTB studies 5 hours a day, as I said, he really wants to become a GM, but on ICS, he has a rating of 1800 and it stays there. Because he encounters so many cheaters that wallop him. The young 1900 OTB player thinks he's not improving, working hard for nothing, gets peeved, and quits the game. Instead he takes up something like snooker, or becomes a tradesmen because he simply needs fast money and his chess life, in his eyes is going nowhere, or whatever, and the chess world may have lost another Bobby Fischer because of this and instead has a janitor, who knows.

I know this is a little bit extreme, but already I am feeling this phycology a bit. I spend a lot of time with the game, but I always bump into 1700 JW's/Tlai's, and it peeves me off. I simply need to beat these 1700 JW's/Tlai's to reach the next step of chess development, and I can't. I have no doubt my chess knowledge is probably improving immensely, but phycologicly I feel like crap, like an inferior, like hard work gets nowhere, and I'm sure thinking that way would effect my OTB play aswell if I dicided to get back into OTB. So the JW's of the world on ICS chess damage the spirit of the game more then you may think.

Originally posted by mateulose

I know this is a little bit extreme, but already I am feeling this phycology a bit. I spend a lot of time with the game, but I always bump into 1700 JW's/Tlai's, and it peeves me off. I simply need to beat these 1700 JW's/Tlai's to ...[text shortened]... ould effect my OTB play aswell if I dicided to get back into OTB.

Yeah I'm a victim myself...fact is I probably would have been a GM long ago if it wasn't for the damn cheating.