The “Cheat Police” is a bad & dangerous idea

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
79 moves? are you sure about that? No way the game went that long especially with his pointless moves toward the end just trying to catch up on time. Or do you mean 79 between the 2 games we played? I've never had a game go that long. 61 is my longest here and that was against a very good opponent in no1maruder. And yes stonewall is it, though there ar ...[text shortened]... hat it was before but that is the anti-computer way to play. I love chessbase, used to like ICC.

Just looked, thought I could see game :-( but can't uchess needs to put that in. Wierd though it shows only 1 game when we played 2. one was checkmate the other was timeout. Wish there was some way to see the game. I had to keep it up just to analyse it before cosing it since I figured wouldnt see it again. But didnt save it.

Originally posted by Kranium

The ‘game moderator’ voting function does not appear to be very public…i.e. it’s difficult to find and does not seem to be well announced. 99.99% of RHP is either unaware that such a vote is taking place, or have chosen not to take part. Isn't it concerning that out of 75,000 members, only 300 (% 0.004) have voted so far?

The player table shows only 5200 players have moved (non-provisional ratings) in the last 100 days. Less than half of these seem to be subscribers.

So a better estimate probably is 305/2600 or about 12%.
Which I'd say was pretty good.

There's some fear of very good players being falsely accused of using improper help , and being tossed out .
First , I don't think Russ is going to let things get out of control . I don't think he'll tolerate this turning into a witch hunt . His goal has got to be getting a larger membership of stronger players , not being known as the site where people are victimized and thrown out for capricious reasons .
Second , I think there's slim chance of non cheats even comming under suspicion . If one is not cheating , it should be evident pretty quickly .

First question about the proposed system - Will expulsion be based on "evidence beond a reasonable doubt " ?
Second - Will Russ have a final say , or will the decision of the cheat police be final ?
Third - I've heard no talk of "reparations" . For example , if I was to lose 2 games to a cheater , and he was discovered and expelled a few weeks later , could my rating/win-loss record be readjusted to expunge those games ? What about tournament wins ? If a cheater won 1st place and was discovered / expelled , would the win be awarded to the second place player , or would the tourney be replayed ?

-Moldy Crow

PS- Tryfon , you seem knowledgable and concerned . Why not get a star and join our happy family ?

one of the reasons i like chess variants is because for some of them, using a computer to cheat is just not possible. find somebody you suspect and play them at a variant. dark chess is my favourite for this and i hope there will never be a computer capable of playing it. i've also heard that variants with big boards are troublesome for computers. i have heard that the best computer can only play chinese chess at the level of a human beginner.
tommy.

Originally posted by kingscrusher
one of the reasons i like chess variants is because for some of them, using a computer to cheat is just not possible. find somebody you suspect and play them at a variant. dark chess is my favourite for this and i hope there will never be a computer capable of playing it. i've also heard that variants with big boards are troublesome for computers. i ha ...[text shortened]... ard that the best computer can only play chinese chess at the level of a human beginner.
tommy.

where do you play dark chess? At itsyourturn? Under what nick?
I play there as Otto Wilgenhof.

iyt as kingscrusher, but not for much longer. the best site for dark chess is scheming mind, where i am (currently) youneedtheTAA.

Originally posted by kingscrusher
one of the reasons i like chess variants is because for some of them, using a computer to cheat is just not possible. find somebody you suspect and play them at a variant. dark chess is my favourite for this and i hope there will never be a computer capable of playing it. i've also heard that variants with big boards are troublesome for computers. i ha ...[text shortened]... ard that the best computer can only play chinese chess at the level of a human beginner.
tommy.

Hmmm, I'm hoping you arent kingscrusher from uchess who posted earlier in this thread and that you just stole his name. Who are you?

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
Hmmm, I'm hoping you arent kingscrusher from uchess who posted earlier in this thread and that you just stole his name. Who are you?

I know him . He's not kingscrusher (CW nick name) , aka Tryfon G here . His name's Tommy . He can't 'steal' a name . If it's not registered here it's up for grabs . Who are you to question someone's nick name ?

Originally posted by Moldy Crow
There's some fear of very good players being falsely accused of using improper help , and being tossed out .
First , I don't think Russ is going to let things get out of control . I don't think he'll tolerate this turning into a witch hunt . His goal has got to be getting a larger membership of stronger players , not being known as the site where pe ...[text shortened]... S- Tryfon , you seem knowledgable and concerned . Why not get a star and join our happy family ?

I think while some people will feel hard done by when they lose to someone later identified as a cheater making reparations common will only increase the number of false accusations made to the cheat police. Say someone loses to a player a couple of hundred points below them. They may feel that accusing them of being a cheater could get them the points back. Whereas if the accuser gets no real personal benefit out of it there is no real point (other than injured pride) to falsely accuse them.

I think if someone loses to a player a couple hundred points below them , and then claims that player is using an engine - he'd get laughed out by the cheat police before it got to first base . If the guy's a chronic cheater , how come he's a couple hundred points below you ? I think one person losing one game is not going to attract the serious scutiny of the cheat police . If that were the case , they'd be so swamped with investigations , no one would ever have to worry about getting thrown out . I think(all of you master minds who have architected this whole thing , stop me if I'm wrong) that they will be looking for someone who's got A LOT of complaints against them and with a rating that's through the roof from a player who hadn't shown much until recently . There's going to have to be some serious red flags before someone has to worry about getting red flagged .

BTW - Was going to post this next on another similar thread and got distracted - Might as well do it here . I was shopping chess sites . There were many reasons I chose rhp . The cheat police was one of the major factors . Some of my friends also looking for a site were impressed that cracking down on cheaters on rhp was impressive to them . They seemed to feel cheating was not addressed on other sites in their experience . I played a year on another site . It was the stated policy that cheating would be dealt with harshly . A couple guys that I think were candidates in my mind for possible cheating just disappeared . I think site admin dealt with them , but this is speculative on my part . It was never confirmed or denied that there had been cheaters caught and expelled . It would have been nice to know that cheating was being actively policed and punished when found . I never knew how serious it was or wasn't to site admin there . I don't want to know all of the gory details , but it is nice to know cheaters are caught , named , and expelled . Win lose or draw I like knowing the guy at the other end is a mind and not silicon chip .

Originally posted by Moldy Crow
I think if someone loses to a player a couple hundred points below them , and then claims that player is using an engine - he'd get laughed out by the cheat police before it got to first base . If the guy's a chronic cheater , how come he's a couple hundred points below you ? I think one person losing one game is not going to attract the serious scutin ...[text shortened]... lled . Win lose or draw I like knowing the guy at the other end is a mind and not silicon chip .

I proposed the following criteria for investigations about a month ago:

1. Investigations of cheating would be undertaken only where there was:

A) A very sharp rating rise of an established player;
B) A new player who comes in and wins a certain number of games without loss;
C) Some n number of complaints which are adjudged to be genuine and not for the purposes of harassment and/or "sorelosership".


I'm not going to be a Game Mod (I have little knowledge and experience with engines), but those who commented on these criteria were generally supportive and that included several who I would expect to be Game Mods. I think that if these criteria are used it would alleviate much of the concern over unfounded accusations against innocent players. Of course, the categories above will not be sufficient in and of themselves to prove cheating, but they should narrow the work of the Game Mods down to those most obviously suspicious. Russ has indicated he would require "overwhelming evidence" of cheating before any actual punishment would be meted out and what is evidence of engine use has been extensively discussed in other threads.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I proposed the following criteria for investigations about a month ago:

1. Investigations of cheating would be undertaken only where there was:

A) A very sharp rating rise of an established player;
B) A new player who comes in and wins a certain number of games without loss;
C) Some n number of complaints which are adjudged to ...[text shortened]... meted out and what is evidence of engine use has been extensively discussed in other threads.

No1M . - Thanks , this is great . Sorry I missed out on this , I think it was probably detailed just prior to my joining .
So why is everyone afraid this is going to become an inquisition ? I'm libritarian by nature , I don't like the idea of free citizens giving up lots of rights in exchange for security . Yet I'm perfectly comfortable with this whole thing as expressed .
If you're not a cheater then you don't have anything to worry about .

Originally posted by Moldy Crow
No1M . - Thanks , this is great . Sorry I missed out on this , I think it was probably detailed just prior to my joining .
So why is everyone afraid this is going to become an inquisition ? I'm libritarian by nature , I don't like the idea of free citizens giving up lots of rights in exchange for security . Yet I'm perfectly comfortable with this whole thing as expressed .
If you're not a cheater then you don't have anything to worry about .

I think people who haven't followed the entire discussion are jumping to conclusions about what the people who support the "Cheat Police" concept are trying to do. To me, the most valuable thing about it is that it should deter engine use just by existing. Believe me, I really don't want to have this discussion; I would be happier if engine use didn't exist on the site but, unfortunately, it does. So we either have to accept it or do womething to attempt to reduce it; and the votes we've had indicate that the great majority of active users want something done.

I also think there's been a little too many public accusations not backed by solid evidence. The only people I've accused in these forums have been Tlai1992 and JamesWoodley and their cases were obvious and blatant. Since the Game Mods are going to come into existence soon, I'd personally prefer a moratorium on public accusations that would hopefully last forever. Let's get this up and running and if we think someone's an engine user let's forward it to the proper authorities; these "he must be cheating because he's really good" are not helpful and seem to be creating a misimpression that there's going to be wholescale bannings which I don't think will be the case.

BTW, if you want to check out my full proposals on Cheat Police procedures, they're in the "Cheat Police" thread started by Russ (page 2 of this Forum) at page 17 near the top.

aye, im not another kingscrusher, but i am A kingscrusher all the same. at least i was until somebody changed my nickname?
i wonder who that was then. its not as though i was using it for immoral purposes. just a kneejerk reaction to the other kingscrusher's manhandling of me at another site in december.

Originally posted by Tryfon Gavriel
Hi Trackhead

May I quickly ask how you managed to beat XxFeArUsA1xX (who no longer has an account there) on uchess.com. I can do quite well against IM's and GM's on blitz chess, but had no chance against him, probably because he ...[text shortened]... p?forumid=1&threadid=186

Best wishes
Tryfon Gavriel
Fide 2160

There ... More evidence against Trackhead ...

I'm sorry, but I can only recommend anyone (and I mean anyone) not to play Trackhead by all means.

There is a clearly very strong player (who is not afraid to show his real name AND his rating) here who quite interestingly put evidence that Trackhead is NOT a real person playing. Sure Tryfon is not implying that Trackhead is not an engine user, but I am ...

Trackhead, please tell us how you managed to win this game ... You have not once (in the forums) proven that you even remotely understand chess (and that despite being mouthy, loud and arrogant in many posts) ... In addition Sander, Robbo and Osse have analysed your games and proven that you are an engine (yes I know that I repeat myself)

I don't care how many people I annoy with my repetitions, but Trackhead must be removed from this site (the sooner the better) ...

I will not rest until action has been taken. This person (and potential other engine-users) are destroying RHP and I will do what I can to prevent that ...

Regards
Boris