Vote for adjustments to the clan scoring system

I respectively disagree that a majority of the clan members will automatically vote yes on the question as to whether the clan system is OK as is or needs improvement.

It is still uncertain in my mind if, other than some of the high point earning clans, many clan members even care. Otherwise you probably won't see so many of the top rated clans (metallica included by the way) offering lopsided challenges and suprising to me, many are accepted.

That's an indicator to me that perhaps many of the clan members do not really care about clan points, they just like playing chess. For that reason, I recommend we have a vote to determine the level of interest in changine the clan system before moving forward.

As an aside, I don't believe there is anything wrong with a clan leader offering lopsided challenges. I would like to see it controlled, but until it is, lopsided challenges are within the rules and those points won are just as valid as any other.

Conversely I see sandbagging in a much different light, that difference being intentional deception. I know many of you believe sandbagging and lopsided challenges are equally evil but I do not. That is my opinion so please take it for what it is, just an opinion..

my2sons

Originally posted by my2sons
I respectively disagree that a majority of the clan members will automatically vote yes on the question as to whether the clan system is OK as is or needs improvement.

It is still uncertain in my mind if, other than some of the high point earning clans, many clan members even care. Otherwise you probably won't see so many of the top rated clans (metallic I do not. That is my opinion so please take it for what it is, just an opinion..

my2sons

About "offering lopsided challenges":

When I was a clan leader, I also recieved lopsided challenges. I rejected them right away, or adjusted them until we were agreed, but I never let them pass.

The problem was rather that the time needed to deal with the challenges was to much, tirering every clan leader to such an extent that they quitted their leadership, or passed it over to some other member, who soon experienced the same thing.

I don't think there is a need for any revision of the clan scoring system, but rather a need to make the life easier for the clan leaders to offer or recieve a challenge. That problem has a priority to be solved, if you ask me.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
About "offering lopsided challenges":

When I was a clan leader, I also recieved lopsided challenges. I rejected them right away, or adjusted them until we were agreed, but I never let them pass.

The problem was rather that the time needed to deal with the challenges was to much, tirering every clan leader to such an extent that they quitted their le ...[text shortened]... ers to offer or recieve a challenge. That problem has a priority to be solved, if you ask me.

You are correct in pointing out that we already have a system for addressing lopsided challenges. Why is there a need to change this aspect of the clan system. I am very pleased that my clan leader does this well. As a clan leader myself, I have no problem with rejecting unfair challenges. Is some automated system being suggested? Sounds like a lot of work to undermine an element of human choice?

Originally posted by drdon
You are correct in pointing out that we already have a system for addressing lopsided challenges. Why is there a need to change this aspect of the clan system. I am very pleased that my clan leader does this well. As a clan leader myself, I have no problem with rejecting unfair challenges. Is some automated system being suggested? Sounds like a lot of work to undermine an element of human choice?

You have hit the nail directly on the head. There are many clan leaders who do an excellent job of rejecting unbalanced challenges. But there are many who either don't care, as FF said they are tired out by the process, or if their clan members don't complain, figure it doesn't matter. There are also clan masters who actively participate in challenges they know to be unbalanced. None of this is about stopping clans from playing whatever games they want. It's all about blocking clans from gaining points due to mismatched games.

What's being offered for consideration is indeed an automated system to factor out the unbalanced challenges. In adramforall's proposed model, any clan could still offer an unbalanced challenge and the opposing clan could accept it, but there would be relatively little for the stronger clan to gain and even the possibility of a net point loss in the case of an upset.

As has been stated time and again, the counter arguments are All that's really needed is ethical behavior from all clan leaders and But my clan leader does a great job of rejecting bad challenges. But ethical behavior is a slippery slope and we could all cross our hearts and swear we'd never wander back into that gray area, but as soon as one clan started crowding that line, the others would be back in there calling them out or saying, hey, Clan X is doing it, so we have to do it, too, only even more so (apologies to Clan X if there is one, BTW).

If we do this right, it makes life easier, even for the clan leaders who are already on guard for the unbalanced challenge. Something KingDavid said in his post sparked an idea. What if in the clan challenge, there was a tiny color-coded flag next to the opponents' names? If both are within the rating range, then both lights are green. If one is greater than 100 points higher than the other, his flag is orange. If one is greater than 200 points higher, his flag is red. That way, the clan master receiving the offered challenge could see in an instant if there was one or more mismatches lurking in the offer without having to do all the work of clicking through the profiles of each player.

Might not something along those lines make life a tiny bit simpler?

Originally posted by sbacat
You have hit the nail directly on the head. There are many clan leaders who do an excellent job of rejecting unbalanced challenges. But there are many who either don't care, as FF said they are tired out by the process, or if their clan members don't complain, figure it doesn't matter. There are also clan masters who actively participate in challenges they kn ...[text shortened]... of each player.

Might not something along those lines make life a tiny bit simpler?

I still think things should remain the same as is. Except maybe a flag or light as you say warning a clan leader when a challenge is sent to them that a player or players ratings have been way higher in the past. But there's still ways around that as some have already figured that out.

I must say I'm tired of hearing that the clan scoring system is all about quantity and no quality. You have to win to get points for your team. That's quality! If a clan plays a whole bunch of clan challenges, more than others, They should get more points if they win those challenges for their clan. They spent more time than the other clans they beat by doing more challenges and winning them with quality play.

If you want to go only by quality. Just get 20 members above 2000 rated and you have one of the best clans. Eliminating anyone under 1900 rated for clan play. Even if they only have to play one or two challenges a year. That's what the leagues are for. The way the system is now allows all players on RHP to join a team and have fun being a part of a clan.

To I basically leave things the same. That's my vote.

Originally posted by sbacat
Something KingDavid said in his post sparked an idea. What if in the clan challenge, there was a tiny color-coded flag next to the opponents' names? If both are within the rating range, then both lights are green. If one is greater than 100 points higher than the other, his flag is orange. If one is greater than 200 points higher, his flag is red. That way, t ...[text shortened]... profiles of each player.

Might not something along those lines make life a tiny bit simpler?

A lot of good common sense discussion going on here. If nothing else I do like the concept of some sort of a warning signal appearing if a clan is offering a challenge in which a player or players rating is significantly below their 5 year high rating.

This might go a long way to exposing sandbaggers.

Originally posted by my2sons
A lot of good common sense discussion going on here. If nothing else I do like the concept of some sort of a warning signal appearing if a clan is offering a challenge in which a player or players rating is significantly below their 5 year high rating.

This might go a long way to exposing sandbaggers.

The overall gist I'm getting, even from the people not hugely in favor of this, is they like the clan system as it is and are in favor of modest improvements, but let's not turn it inside out over something that isn't a problem as far as most people are concerned.

If people like the idea of the ratings mismatch flag, they should chime in and say so. Why not make life for clanmasters a bit less complicated?

Originally posted by KingDavid403
I still think things should remain the same as is. Except maybe a flag or light as you say warning a clan leader when a challenge is sent to them that a player or players ratings have been way higher in the past. But there's still ways around that as some have already figured that out.

I must say I'm tired of hearing that the clan scoring system is ...[text shortened]... have fun being a part of a clan.

To I basically leave things the same. That's my vote.

Very well put! ... except for the little flag idea. Most of use would have these. Why not just look at player profiles?

Originally posted by sbacat
The overall gist I'm getting, even from the people not hugely in favor of this, is they like the clan system as it is and are in favor of modest improvements, but let's not turn it inside out over something that isn't a problem as far as most people are concerned.

If people like the idea of the ratings mismatch flag, they should chime in and say so. Why not make life for clanmasters a bit less complicated?

An important role of a clan leader is to vet challenges. Good clan leaders do this. Poor ones do not. This does not take a great deal of time or intelligence.The idea that there be cute little "warning-there-may-be danger-lurking" flags is facile and insulting to the intelligence of all good clan leaders.

Originally posted by drdon
Very well put! ... except for the little flag idea. Most of use would have these. Why not just look at player profiles?

I still think the little red flag idea might be good. Here's why, If a clan leader knows when he or she tries and sneak a sandbagger into a challenge against a lower rated player that a red flag is going to appear to the other clan leader they most likely wouldn't do it.
I've been a clan leader going on 5 years now here at RHP. And I must admit about once or twice a year someone sneaks a sandbagger by me. Not often. But it does happen. I still would check back rounds and history of players for my own reasons anyways.
But if a clan leader knows a red flag is going to go up, I think it would detour him or her from the idea of a unethical clan challenge attempt. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by KingDavid403
I still think the little red flag idea might be good. Here's why, If a clan leader knows when he or she tries and sneak a sandbagger into a challenge against a lower rated player that a red flag is going to appear to the other clan leader they most likely wouldn't do it.
I've been a clan leader going on 5 years now here at RHP. And I must admit ab ...[text shortened]... ould detour him or her from the idea of a unethical clan challenge attempt. Just my opinion.

And a good opinion it is in my opinion that is😀

Originally posted by my2sons
And a good opinion it is in my opinion that is😀

Nice to see a leader that knows when to support his own opinion! Well done!

Originally posted by KingDavid403
I still think the little red flag idea might be good. Here's why, If a clan leader knows when he or she tries and sneak a sandbagger into a challenge against a lower rated player that a red flag is going to appear to the other clan leader they most likely wouldn't do it.
I've been a clan leader going on 5 years now here at RHP. And I must admit ab ...[text shortened]... ould detour him or her from the idea of a unethical clan challenge attempt. Just my opinion.

Now it's a red flag eh? Who specifically are you proposing decides when the "red" flag should be applied? A Mod? An automated system?Using what formula? Who determined the formula? What are the variables? This is not an idea until these specifics are discussed.

Originally posted by drdon
Now it's a red flag eh? Who specifically are you proposing decides when the "red" flag should be applied? A Mod? An automated system?Using what formula? Who determined the formula? What are the variables? This is not an idea until these specifics are discussed.

Now it's a red flag eh? Saying it sets off a red flag is a expression used here in the states as it's a warning. Any symbol would do I would think.

Who specifically are you proposing decides when the "red" flag should be applied? The administrators would be the ones that would decide anything like that. I'm sure they could implement a automated system that could take care of it such as the tournament entry rating that is used today.

Who determines the formula? What are the variables? This is not an idea until these specifics are discussed. These are good questions and should be discussed here in the site ideas forum about this site idea. that's what this forum is for. I said before that I think the "red flag" lol, should fly when a player is matched against another player with a 2 or 300 point difference from highest ratings ever, or something like that. Any other suggestions eh?? 🙂

Originally posted by KingDavid403
[b]Now it's a red flag eh? Saying it sets off a red flag is a expression used here in the states as it's a warning. Any symbol would do I would think.

Who specifically are you proposing decides when the "red" flag should be applied? The administrators would be the ones that would decide anything like that. I'm sure they could implemen ...[text shortened]... rence from highest ratings ever, or something like that. Any other suggestions eh?? 🙂[/b]

I took 50 clan members at random and compared their current ratings to their 5 year high ratings.

5 year high - 1687
current rating - 1518

If we set the warning flag at a 350 point differential between a players 5 year high versus current rating, 3 of the 50 players would be flagged. The stats on the 3 players in question:

player A - current 1251, 5 yr high 1657
player B - current 1237, 5 yr high 1745
player B - current 1791, 5 yr high 2152

We could expand the sample size, but I suspect the results would not change significantly.

my2sons