1:1 In the beginning God created the heaves and the earth.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the noncommissioned years were spent in open debauchery. Might this have been raised by the folks who lived in and around Him?

He lived under the Roman Empire, debauchery was the norm.

Who were the people who lived in and around him during the noncommissioned years? Where did he go? What did he do? Who would've documented what he got up to?

Originally posted by jaywill
Maybe the problem is with you? Maybe you are so desperate to continue in your sinful life without any inteference from a righteous God, that you have to rationalize by any means that the enemy is Jesus, who died and rose for your salvation.

Maybe. Do you want the quotes or not?

Originally posted by adam warlock
Maybe. Do you want the quotes or not?

============================
Maybe. Do you want the quotes or not?
============================

No. Don't give me the quotes as isolated statements void of context.

Give me the quotes in their context.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]But you've just made my point, you don't have any idea what Jesus got up to during his life, nobody does. 90% of it, or thereabouts, is missing. To claim nobody has a higher morality than Jesus, when so much of his life is unaccounted for, is simply absurd in my view.

All you've presented is what you think he may have got up to. In short, you have no ...[text shortened]... not left me altogether without a witness as to what those 29 years of Jesus must have been like.

But you've just made my point, you don't have any idea what Jesus got up to during his life, nobody does. 90% of it, or thereabouts, is missing. To claim nobody has a higher morality than Jesus, when so much of his life is unaccounted for, is simply absurd in my view.

All you've presented is what you think he may have got up to. In short, you have no idea do you? [/b]

It is true that I have no record of His 30 years in Nazareth. (That is minus the two or so years in Egypt as a toddler). It is also true that I gave you my interpretation of what I think Jesus was up to.

But because all the positive characteristics of the previous men of women of God in the Bible are precursors of Jesus, I CAN know that as they behaved, Jesus must have done likewise and surpassingly.

I do have a record of some of the youth of Joseph, David, Moses, Solomon, Esther, Ruth, Isaac, Abraham. All of the best characteristics of thier youth must reflect what kind of person Jesus was. For they were all foreshadows, precursors, typological previews of the Christ.

Yet Jesus was sinless. So the obediance of Isaac as a youth to his father must tell me something about the youth of Jesus.

The consecration of Samuel as a youth must indicate what the youth of Jesus must have been like at least.

The integrity of young Joseph must tell me how Jesus faced His temptations.

The wisdom and insight of Daniel surely tells me what young Jesus was like.

The courage of David must tell me something about the courage of Jesus as a youth.

So the Bible has not left me altogether without a witness as to what those 29 years of Jesus must have been like.

Jesus is throughout the entire Bible.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]============================
Maybe. Do you want the quotes or not?
============================

No. Don't give me the quotes as isolated statements void of context.

Give me the quotes in their context.[/b]

Alrighty then. Let us start by Mark 4:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+4&version=NIV

1Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge.
2He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said:
3"Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed.
4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.
5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain.
8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times."

9Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.
11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"

13Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?
14The farmer sows the word.
15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy.
17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word;
19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.
20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown."

Is it just me or is Jesus saying that he speaks in parables so that most people don't understand him and consequently don't repent and end up in Hell? What's your take on this?

Edit: In the previous post you said this:

Jesus is throughout the entire Bible.

Does that mean that I can bring some quotes of the OT too?

=========================================
Is it just me or is Jesus saying that he speaks in parables so that most people don't understand him and consequently don't repent and end up in Hell? What's your take on this?
=====================================

The question is - Did Jesus delight that some sinners would perish in eternal punishsment? You submit as an example Mark 4:1-20.

Of the four types of soil, only the first indicates those who have not understood or believed in the message of Jesus (Mark 4:4). Clearly the other three types of environment do not represent persons who perish forever but persons who having believed may or may not have difficulty bearing fruit. That is living out the expression of the indwelling seed of divine life sown into them.

As far as eternal life is concerned that would mean that 25% of the cases are doomed. Of course it does not say that a person only gets to hear the message once. History of filled with people who did not understand the Gospel the first one, two, or even many more times. Eventually they understood and believed.

The context of the parable points out that only by divine revelation can anyone respond to the Gospel. The natural mind cannot comprehend. Do not ask me to explain when and why some receive divine revelation and some do not.

But the disciples themselves apparently had to have the teaching explained further to them as well. It seems to me then that if Jesus was "delighted" that some people fail to understand and believe the Gospel He would have left His disciples without clarification of the teaching.

Now, the crux of the matter: "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to those outside, all things are in parables, In order that seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest they turn and it be forgiven them."

How do you know that this situation is one that Jesus delights in ? How do you know that it does not rather break the heart of God ? Some men luxuriate in the rebellious nature of Satan. It is a total rush to them to stand against God. The teaching of God wars against their pride. No ground is given to thier self trust. Their supposed opposing wisdom must be exposed as foolishness. He who humbles himself will be exalted. The proud ones who delight to amass arguments against God are in danger of being sent away empty:

While I do see Jesus saying that His parables will be intentional obstacles to some opposing, rejecting, haughty, high minded, prideful rebels, and enemies of Jesus, there is nothing that indicates He is happy about thier condition.

Paul as a zealot Pharisee was such an obstinate opposer of Jesus, eventually received revelation and was saved. Paul writes that God desires all men to be saved and that none would perish. Paul also set himself as an example of God's patience. He [Paul] as a "blasphemer" and injurous insulting opposer of Christ was shown mercy that he might be a "pattern" to all people afterwards.

Your example does not demonstrate to me that Jesus was "delighted" about some perishing forever. The parable does not even indicate that such people have to remain in that state of frustration or that they were given only ONE chance to hear the message of salvation.

Originally posted by jaywill
The context of the parable points out that only by divine revelation can anyone respond to the Gospel.

...
While I do see Jesus saying that His parables will be intentional obstacles to some opposing, rejecting, haughty, high minded, prideful rebels, and enemies of Jesus, there is nothing that indicates He is happy about thier condition.

Of course it doesn't. I'm just getting started on building my case. For now I just want to know if given the context of that quote Jesus says that he speaks on parables so that a great number of people don't understand his message and end up being in Hell.

That's all. After this I have two or three more quotes. And we'll try to reach a conclusion.

And let us not assume anything so far. Let us have a blank slate and only at the end (when multiple view points are available) we'll try to reach a conclusion.
I've already have a conclusion but I can assure you that it wasn't the conclusion I was expecting when I first started to think/read these things

Originally posted by adam warlock
Alrighty then. Let us start by Mark 4:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+4&version=NIV

1Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge.
2He taught them many things by tire Bible.

Does that mean that I can bring some quotes of the OT too?

Why not? That is if you understood THIS preliminary statement qualifying me saying that Jesus is in the whole Bible:

"But because all the positive characteristics of the previous men of women of God in the Bible are precursors of Jesus, I CAN know that as they behaved, Jesus must have done likewise and surpassingly."

The operative word there is "positive".

Don't submit Jezebel or Saul or Korah or Cain or any of the failures of men of God as windows into the personality of Jesus. That shows that you didn't understand my writing. But you're going to probably try to do something like that anyway. Aren't you ?

Originally posted by adam warlock
Of course it doesn't. I'm just getting started on building my case. For now I just want to know if given the context of that quote Jesus says that he speaks on parables so that a great number of people don't understand his message and end up being in Hell.

That's all. After this I have two or three more quotes. And we'll try to reach a conclusion.
...[text shortened]... it wasn't the conclusion I was expecting when I first started to think/read these things

===============================
Of course it doesn't. I'm just getting started on building my case. For now I just want to know if given the context of that quote Jesus says that he speaks on parables so that a great number of people don't understand his message and end up being in Hell.
=================================

You're just getting started in someone else's case, in your handy dandy Christian refuter book, most likely.

So this is the excuse you intend to bring before God on the last judgment?

"I would have believed to be saved but you see Jesus told parables to frustrate me so that I would be damned and He would be delighted in it. So for that reason I stand here an unsaved rejector of the death of Jesus for my sins."

================================
That's all. After this I have two or three more quotes. And we'll try to reach a conclusion.

And let us not assume anything so far. Let us have a blank slate and only at the end (when multiple view points are available) we'll try to reach a conclusion.
I've already have a conclusion but I can assure you that it wasn't the conclusion I was expecting when I first started to think/read these things
===============================

You hunted for rationals to justify your rejection of the love of Christ for you?

You hunted and collected some sayings that give you a pretty good case that you may be absolved for spurning His death on the cross for you and your rejection can be justified ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===============================
Of course it doesn't. I'm just getting started on building my case. For now I just want to know if given the context of that quote Jesus says that he speaks on parables so that a great number of people don't understand his message and end up being in Hell.
=================================

You're just getti ...[text shortened]... ed for spurning His death on the cross for you and your rejection can be justified ?[/b]

It was the other way around: I started as a naive believer then started reading and only then rejected Him.

If you want to believe that I'm rationalizing my sinner life I guess this talk is over before it even started.

Originally posted by jaywill
Why not? That is if you understood THIS preliminary statement qualifying me saying that Jesus is in the whole Bible:

[b]"But because all the positive characteristics of the previous men of women of God in the Bible are precursors of Jesus, I CAN know that as they behaved, Jesus must have done likewise and surpassingly."

The operative word there ...[text shortened]... writing. But you're going to probably try to do something like that anyway. Aren't you ?[/b]

What's wrong with Saul?

Originally posted by jaywill
Freaky, you and I can have a good respectful discussion. I'm not wasting another moment with finnigan. This poster only wants to insult us.

She wants just to needle Christians.

I have seen enough other posts on this site for your claim to be laughable. You have not withdrawn because I trade insults because I do not in fact do that, or not beyond the level of banter.

There are threads in Spirituality which I leave alone, for instance about hymns. I am not just here to goad Christians (though maybe that is a product of my posts). But in a thread inviting debate about faith - vs - atheism I am not out of place. And of course, when I raise such matters elsewhere - say Debates - your friend argues for it to be relocated to Spirituality.

You are not really debating though. You are working hard on converting and repeatedly persuading others to turn to your reading of the bible. What I think you dislike in my post is that I find your arguments and explanations dishonest and point that out with specifics - for instance in my comment on your Hugh Ross lecture which is seriously dishonest and deceptive.

You have not squashed my arguments - you have instead turned to one of the oldest tactics of a weak argument - attack the person.

Spirituality is not your property and I am not bound by your rules.

Originally posted by finnegan
I have seen enough other posts on this site for your claim to be laughable. You have not withdrawn because I trade insults because I do not in fact do that, or not beyond the level of banter.

There are threads in Spirituality which I leave alone, for instance about hymns. I am not just here to goad Christians (though maybe that is a product of my posts ...[text shortened]... ent - attack the person.

Spirituality is not your property and I am not bound by your rules.

Deflect much?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
But you've just made my point, you don't have any idea what Jesus got up to during his life, nobody does. 90% of it, or thereabouts, is missing. To claim nobody has a higher morality than Jesus, when so much of his life is unaccounted for, is simply absurd in my view.

All you've presented is what you think he may have got up to. In short, you have no idea do you?

Didn't he like go to India to recieve spiritual intsruction?

Originally posted by adam warlock
It was the other way around: I started as a naive believer then started reading and only then rejected Him.

If you want to believe that I'm rationalizing my sinner life I guess this talk is over before it even started.

Laughable isn't it? You cant have a debate when people pidgeon hole you into the "sinner" category openly and explictly.
I thought we were all sinners, so by the virtue if that fact shouldn't we not really accuse people of sinning specifically unless it directly relates to the "debate". I would call that hitting below the belt, amongst other things.