Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
[b]Where's the logic in that? Opinion does not Truth make. You already said it was your opinion, and it is not rational to base belief on opinion.

Dude, it's your own logic!!! "Reason and logic. The universe is eternal, otherwise it's not the universe," Is no more or less logical or opinion based than "God is eternal, otherwise He's not God."[/b]

The universe doesn't need to be eternal to be the universe. That's logic.

On the other hand, it is logical to reason that God must be eternal otherwise He's not God. God existed eternally before the creation of the universe. That's logical.

It is also logical not to assume there is no God based on finite knowledge. The knowledge of God is not by human ingenuity or intelligence, but by God who reveals Himself in creation or by direct revelation. It's simple logic.

Originally posted by @josephw
...
On the other hand, it is logical to reason that God must be eternal otherwise He's not God. God existed eternally before the creation of the universe. That's logical....

Ah! The magical sa flower. The spaghetti monster. the invisible pink unicorn! This is so logical.

Originally posted by @apathist
Science does not create objective knowledge. That's 101, very basic stuff.

I didn't ask whether it creates objective knowledge. Can you use the scientific method to establish objective truth? Yes or No?

Originally posted by @apathist
Science does not establish truth. It establishes knowledge. (Science is not the only source of knowledge.)

Truth is what knowledge is trying to obtain. Knowledge is asymptotic to truth - at best knowledge gets closer and closer to the truth.

Can objective truth or knowledge ever be established?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Can objective truth or knowledge ever be established?

Sure. Mathematics, for example, is full of objective truth. 1+1=2 regardless of anyone's opinion. Well, in any base other than 2, and given the modern definitions for the symbols, and probably other disclaimers too.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
I didn't ask whether it creates objective knowledge. Can you use the scientific method to establish objective truth? Yes or No?

No. Science does not establish objective truth.

Originally posted by @apathist
Sure. Mathematics, for example, is full of objective truth. 1+1=2 regardless of anyone's opinion. Well, in any base other than 2, and given the modern definitions for the symbols, and probably other disclaimers too.

indeed, mathematics is objective truth only in so far as the axioms allow it to be objectively true (relying as they do on the validity of human observation).

Originally posted by @apathist
I called it the greatest mystery. Connect the dots.

Personally I prefer that we are told how and why.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Personally I prefer that we are told how and why.

Let me introduce you to Mr Einstein and Mr Darwin.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Let me introduce you to Mr Einstein and Mr Darwin.

Both of which are as flawed as you and I, Darwin I wouldn't put in the same sentence as
Einstein.

Originally posted by @apathist
Ah! The magical sa flower. The spaghetti monster. the invisible pink unicorn! This is so logical.

You're out of context.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Let me introduce you to Mr Einstein and Mr Darwin.

Let me introduce you to Jesus.

Originally posted by @josephw
It is not my opinion that the universe bears witness of a creator. It is an observable fact.

You are entitled to your opinion that it is an "observable fact"; it is merely your personal opinion, nevertheless.

Originally posted by @apathist
No. Science does not establish objective truth.

What does?

If any truth statement is only subjectively true why should anyone take it seriously?

Originally posted by @fmf
You are entitled to your opinion that it is an "observable fact"; it is merely your personal opinion, nevertheless.

"You are entitled to your opinion..."

Thank you for your permission, but it's not necessary, because it's not my opinion.

Information(creator) + matter(energy) = life(organized biological material) Observable, objectively existing, independent of an opinion.

Not a perfect formula illustration, but it gets the point across.