Originally posted by karoly aczelI think it's closer to 40,000 rather than 80,000.
i have heard there are 80,000 denominations of christianity. If so doesn't that reflect a fair bit of conjecture just within one religion?
...similarily there are 84000 sutras in bhuddism.
(it is said there are 84000 sutras because there are 84000 follies)
AM i in the ball park with these figures?
- Joined
- 07 Mar 09
- Moves
- 32473
Originally posted by karoly aczelSince sumydid is most likely a self-righteous protestant texan (think George W. Bush) I can explain what they were going on about (and maybe shed the some light on your original question.) Southern (in the USA) protestants were long taught that the 'great satan' in the world, 'the whore of babylon' was the catholic church so that was the spirit of his post: christians are divided because the evil catholics perverted the teaching. On the other hand, you and I both know that they have divisions because they teach division. They divide human-kind up into those who will suffer forever and those that their god will spare from suffering and they are not shy about telling you to which group you belong.
yeah ,look i just went back through this thread and i will have to apologize. Sorry . (although i still don't rightly know what you two were on about)
Originally posted by TerrierJackThank you mr.TJ
Since sumydid is most likely a self-righteous protestant texan (think George W. Bush) I can explain what they were going on about (and maybe shed the some light on your original question.) Southern (in the USA) protestants were long taught that the 'great satan' in the world, 'the whore of babylon' was the catholic church so that was the spirit of his po ...[text shortened]... will spare from suffering and they are not shy about telling you to which group you belong.
(at the risk of sounding like a 'cheer-leader'😉🙂😀🙄😲
I don't think anyone has addressed my question. Perhaps no one can. But I repeat.
So what is the God ordained answer to the problem of so many denominations?
Are the Christians left with no answer ? We've all had enough time and posts to gloat over thousands of divisions. Now is there a way out of this problem to the Christians.
Possible replies:
1.) No. The church has been defeated.
2.) Yes. They will all be one in heaven some day.
3.) No. There is no answer and we are glad that there is no answer. That way our rationalization for not believing in Jesus is stronger.
4.) Yes. There is a way out and some are taking the way out today.
Originally posted by jaywillDid I miss the part where you explained why this is a problem? People have different spiritual needs, and they join the group that meets those needs. Christian groups by definition believe that Jesus was the Christ or the Messiah. Beyond that, each group focuses on what helps them navigate their earthly journey together. That includes a range of understandings about how they interpret a holy book that wasn't written in their native language and was translated as well as which books belong in that holy book. Whether there are numerous variations (in Christianity) or fewer variations (in Judaism and Islam) is irrelevant. People choose (generally) the religious group they want to belong to; God isn't choosing which one God wants to belong to.
I don't think anyone has addressed my question. Perhaps no one can. But I repeat.
So what is the God ordained answer to the problem of so many denominations?
Are the Christians left with no answer ? We've all had enough time and posts to gloat over thousands of divisions. Now is there a way out of this problem to the Christians.
Possible replies ...[text shortened]... g in Jesus is stronger.
4.) Yes. There is a way out and some are taking the way out today.
Imagine you have four children and your spouse tells them all that you said they have to make their bed. One makes it right away and goes to school. One decides that since you weren't specific about a timeline, decides that not making it until tomorrow counts. The third is going to be an IKEA salesman someday and gets out some wood and nails and starts making a bed from scratch. The fourth isn't sure you really said it but decides that as long as the bedroom is fairly neat, you'll be happy enough. Although only one is doing what you desired, all are doing what you said based on their interpretation of your words or the person who allegedly passed along your words.
Is it a problem? Well, if you wanted everyone to do what the first child did then you shouldn't have left room for interpretation and you should have given the message directly.
I personally think variety is great. Not because of your number 3 answer, but because it gives more people the opportunity to join a group of people who they can journey with who have the same spiritual needs they do (in theory). I've been to churches in which the priest or pastor was so horrible (rigid, cold, believing that the people are made for the church, etc.) that I thought if that was the only choice available to me, I'd never go to church again.
If I didn't answer your question then please be specific about why it is a problem that there are multiple denominations in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
Originally posted by jaywillNo, there is no way out of the problem. Christianity is a text based religion, none of whose texts were written by its ostensible founder. All of its texts were written decades after Jesus' death by people who never met him. From its very inception there were a great number of "denominations" floating about, all of who had very different interpretations of what it meant to be "Christian."
I don't think anyone has addressed my question. Perhaps no one can. But I repeat.
So what is the God ordained answer to the problem of so many denominations?
Are the Christians left with no answer ? We've all had enough time and posts to gloat over thousands of divisions. Now is there a way out of this problem to the Christians.
Possible replies ...[text shortened]... g in Jesus is stronger.
4.) Yes. There is a way out and some are taking the way out today.
It is my personal opinion that Jesus' aphoristic style of speech was specifically meant to defy its ossification into orthodox rigidity. It was meant to be a flexible approach, open to a variety of interpretations. As such, there can be no one correct denomination, or one correct interpretation. This inherent multiplicity of viewpoints SHOULD be Christianity's greatest asset, but instead its adherents spend all their time trying to box Jesus into tighter and tighter compartments of their own flawed design.
Originally posted by rwingettGood paragraph.
It is my personal opinion that Jesus' aphoristic style of speech was specifically meant to defy its ossification into orthodox rigidity. It was meant to be a flexible approach, open to a variety of interpretations. As such, there can be no one correct denomination, or one correct interpretation. This inherent multiplicity of viewpoints SHOULD be Christi ...[text shortened]... eir time trying to box Jesus into tighter and tighter compartments of their own flawed design.
Originally posted by jaywillI see no problem with the various denominations. Everyone has a different need, and different churches fill those needs in a unique way. In trifling matters of doctrine we should not concern ourselves with squabbling. The notable exception being the divinity of Jesus Christ. If a church does not recognize the divinity of Christ, then how can they be called Christian? any one have an answer?
So what is the answer to the problem of so many denominations ?
Is God without a solution then ?
Is it a hopeless problem from which disciples of Jesus cannot be rescued?
Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church afterall, in spite of the promise of Christ ?
What is the solution to so many divisions among Christians ?
Originally posted by duecerChristians are those who do the will of Christ and follow His commandments. The most important are to love God and love thy neighbour as thyself ... in other words DO GOOD WORKS. Those are true Christians. Only in your brainwashed little mind did Christ somewhere say that Christians must accept His divinity.
I see no problem with the various denominations. Everyone has a different need, and different churches fill those needs in a unique way. In trifling matters of doctrine we should not concern ourselves with squabbling. The notable exception being the divinity of Jesus Christ. If a church does not recognize the divinity of Christ, then how can they be called Christian? any one have an answer?
Pawnhandler,
==============================
Did I miss the part where you explained why this is a problem? People have different spiritual needs, and they join the group that meets those needs. Christian groups by definition believe that Jesus was the Christ or the Messiah.
================================
I fully agree with you that people have diverse needs. But people's diverse needs should not result in many kinds of churches.
Many kinds of churches is a scandel to the Christian faith. Some of us think this cannot be denied.
=================================
Beyond that, each group focuses on what helps them navigate their earthly journey together. That includes a range of understandings about how they interpret a holy book that wasn't written in their native language and was translated as well as which books belong in that holy book. Whether there are numerous variations (in Christianity) or fewer variations (in Judaism and Islam) is irrelevant.
======================================
For the Christian it can hardly be denied that many kinds of churches is a scandel upon our faith. The followers of Jesus may have different understandings of things. To take those different understandings as ground to created different kinds of churches is a problem.
Church - by its very nature should mean oneness, unity, harmony. If I go fall out with another believer and we both remain churching together, that is okay. If on the other hand I take that disagreement and go across the street and start another kind of church, that is a problem.
The world sees it. It is not something we Christians can sweep under the rug. Divisions so that there are different kinds of churches is a problem.
Somehow, the believers is Jesus should not use their divisions as grounds to establish many kinds of churches. These are divisions. These are denominations. It is a scandel.
===================================
People choose (generally) the religious group they want to belong to; God isn't choosing which one God wants to belong to.
================================
I'll come back to this latter. I am not talking about the choice of different faiths. I am talking about those who call themselves Christians, followers of Jesus.
The difference between one who decides she wants to be a Moslem not a Christian and one who wants to be Christian is one matter. I expect them to haver different "churches" - a mosque and a church, if you will.
The difference between two believers in Jesus who live in one town yet have different churches because of their differences, that is another issue.
Do you see the difference ? I am talking about Christian denominations. I am not talking about totally different faiths.
I am not speaking of Moslems, Bahais, and Buddhists all being united to be one "church". You and I may be talking about different concepts.
==============================
I personally think variety is great. Not because of your number 3 answer, but because it gives more people the opportunity to join a group of people who they can journey with who have the same spiritual needs they do (in theory). I've been to churches in which the priest or pastor was so horrible (rigid, cold, believing that the people are made for the church, etc.) that I thought if that was the only choice available to me, I'd never go to church again.
If I didn't answer your question then please be specific about why it is a problem that there are multiple denominations in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
========================================
Well, my question was limited to the Christian faith.
And I think your answer is more along the line of all people of all faiths being tolerant.
Again, just speaking of the Christian faith, should tolerance lead to thousands of kinds of churches ? Can we see such a thing in the New Testament? If so then there is no problem.
But if we see such a thing discouraged (towards Christians that is) then there must be a problem with the Christian testimony.
Denominations and divisions, I think, are a legitimate scandelous problem with the disciples of Jesus.
What is the way out ? That's what I ask. I have my ideas on that. For now I put the question up for consideration.
Thanks
Originally posted by rwingett==============================
No, there is no way out of the problem. Christianity is a text based religion, none of whose texts were written by its ostensible founder. All of its texts were written decades after Jesus' death by people who never met him. From its very inception there were a great number of "denominations" floating about, all of who had very different interpretations of ime trying to box Jesus into tighter and tighter compartments of their own flawed design.
No, there is no way out of the problem. Christianity is a text based religion, none of whose texts were written by its ostensible founder. All of its texts were written decades after Jesus' death by people who never met him. From its very inception there were a great number of "denominations" floating about, all of who had very different interpretations of what it meant to be "Christian."
=========================================
You say the problem of divisions is a hopeless one. You branch off into some other issues which I suppose are the reasons why you feel that the denominational problem is hopeless.
I, however, do not believe that the problem is hopeless. And some of your inferences I also do not accept at face value. But they would be other discussions.
IE. The New Testament does not reflect the ideas of Jesus but of some other folks long after, who got it all confused and distorted.
======================================
It is my personal opinion that Jesus' aphoristic style of speech was specifically meant to defy its ossification into orthodox rigidity.
=====================================
There may be some truth to that. However, leaping from that assumption even if valid, to postulate that He meant the exact opposite of what He taught, is a mistake.
So, yes, Jesus said things which were hard to take with systematic rigidity. That does not mean that we can say He was NOT the Son of God. That does not mean that we can say He did NOT rise from the dead. That does not mean that we can say that He didn't mean that He was the Savior of sinners.
I cannot use flexibility of application of the words of Jesus to pretend He meant the diametric opposite of some of His clearest teachings.
I can say that there are some things the disciples can be GENERAL about. Yet there are some things that we are not to be general about but specific about.
=====================================
It was meant to be a flexible approach, open to a variety of interpretations. As such, there can be no one correct denomination, or one correct interpretation.
=====================================
There are some things of which Christians should be GENERAL about. They should not, based upon different views, establish different kinds ofchurches.
But for certain, there are many things which Christians should be general about. They are not sufficient grounds to establish a new kind of church on. Especially in the same locality.
Originally posted by Rajk999it is Christ's commandment that we love one another...I suspect sir, that you are not a Christian.
Christians are those who do the will of Christ and follow His commandments. The most important are to love God and love thy neighbour as thyself ... in other words DO GOOD WORKS. Those are true Christians. Only in your brainwashed little mind did Christ somewhere say that Christians must accept His divinity.