80 000 denominations of christianity

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christians are those who do the will of Christ and follow His commandments. The most important are to love God and love thy neighbour as thyself ... in other words DO GOOD WORKS. Those are true Christians. Only in your brainwashed little mind did Christ somewhere say that Christians must accept His divinity.

Muslims love God, and love their nieghbors, are they Christians as well? Jews love God, and love their nieghbors, what about them?

Originally posted by jaywill
Denominations and divisions, I think, are a legitimate scandelous problem with the disciples of Jesus.

Why? I have read several posts where you stated and re-stated that but not one cogent explanation of why anyone should accept it as true.

As for myself (and again, I have no dog in this fight,) if you define yourself by division then you shouldn't be surprised to see division. As President Obama said today: "So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end." Are ideas really more important to you than people?

Originally posted by TerrierJack
Why? I have read several posts where you stated and re-stated that but not one cogent explanation of why anyone should accept it as true.

As for myself (and again, I have no dog in this fight,) if you define yourself by division then you shouldn't be surprised to see division. As President Obama said today: "So long as our relationship is defined by o ...[text shortened]... cycle of suspicion and discord must end." Are ideas really more important to you than people?

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Why? I have read several posts where you stated and re-stated that but not one cogent explanation of why anyone should accept it as true.
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I have left some things unexplained.

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As for myself (and again, I have no dog in this fight,) if you define yourself by division then you shouldn't be surprised to see division.
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I agree. I do have a dog in the fight. Or an angel as ever the case may be.

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As President Obama said today: "So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end." Are ideas really more important to you than people?
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I am posing a question about the unity and the oneness of the Christian church. I am not posing the question concerning general unity of all peoples in the world.

The thread topic states something about 80,000 denominations. I assumed that they were talking about denominations among Christians.

The church "EKKLESIA" is the called out ones - called out of the world.

The unity of the society of people in the world and the unity of the Christian church are two different matters.

What did the Apostle Paul say about the divisions in the city of Corinth between various Christian factions? Did he encourage it or discourage it?

If you are that interested I would like you to open your New Testament and read 1 Corinthians chapter 1. It is not very long.

There you will see that there is a problem if there are schisms among Christian brothers in the city of Corinth.

Diffeent kinds of churches is a problem. God has a solution to the problem. And some Christians are availing themselves to God's solution. The problem is not hopeless.

We believers do not have to remain in hundreds of different denominations. And it is a relief to discover the God ordained remedy to this problem of divisions.

What do you suppose the remedy is ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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Why? I have read several posts where you stated and re-stated that but not one cogent explanation of why anyone should accept it as true.
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I have left some things unexplained.

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As for myself (and again, I have no ...[text shortened]... od ordained remedy to this problem of divisions.

What do you suppose the remedy is ?

Many denominations like the United Methodist are actively seeking reconciliation and eccumenism their brothers and sisters in Christ. Real problems arise when one denomination says "you don't believe exactly what we believe so you are not Christians".

Some people find great comfort in the centuries old ritual of the church and are drawn closer to God as a result, some like unscripted worship in a relaxed atmosphere....I think there is room for all of us....with some true Chrisatian love and understanding

Originally posted by jaywill
The unity of the society of people in the world and the unity of the Christian church are two different matters.

More division, that's my point, if you see division (and see value in it) then it will pervade all that you say, think, or do. If you are more concerned about ideas than people then you've already divided yourself from most everybody. The traditional solution for people with that attitude is to either cut themselves off physically from others or reduce the number of others in their immediate vicinity. I hope you are not really advocating either but you could certainly achieve unity if the rest of us were dead - but to what end? Do you want a world with 100 christians in the same sect or millions in different sects? (And in any case - how are you qualified to make that decision for any other christian?)

(But! I know this won't mean anything to you because you are right - so I'll not post any more on this subject.)

Originally posted by TerrierJack
More division, that's my point, if you see division (and see value in it) then it will pervade all that you say, think, or do. If you are more concerned about ideas than people then you've already divided yourself from most everybody. The traditional solution for people with that attitude is to either cut themselves off physically from others or reduce t ...[text shortened]... n't mean anything to you because you are right - so I'll not post any more on this subject.)

It is not to be assumed that I am right.

Maybe I'm not.

Originally posted by jaywill
It is not to be assumed that I am right.

Maybe I'm not.

(So I can't resist this final observation.)

Maybe the unity you seek is realizing that the rest of us aren't so sure either and just try to accept the choices we make that harm no one. If that means 1 sect or 6 billion what difference does it make as long as we can achieve justice (or at least not let division make it more difficult to achieve.)

Originally posted by jaywill
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No, there is no way out of the problem. Christianity is a text based religion, none of whose texts were written by its ostensible founder. All of its texts were written decades after Jesus' death by people who never met him. From its very inception there were a great number of "denominations" floating about, all of wh sufficient grounds to establish a new kind of church on. Especially in the same locality.

I didn't say that the problem of denominations is hopeless. My point was that it shouldn't be interpreted as a problem at all. Given the way in which the bible was written and compiled, I don't believe that you can have any firm idea of what Jesus actually said, and therefore think it is ludicrous to say that any particular interpretation, and only that interpretation, is what Jesus meant.

This orthodox rigidity has been the bane of Christianity ever since people began ascribing quotes to Jesus and committing them to print. Have you ever wondered why Jesus never wrote down his own pithy bon mots as he rattled them off (or had them written down)? Why was nothing written down until Paul took up his pen, almost two decades after Jesus died? It is true that literacy was not common in that time or place, but I wonder if it wasn't because Jesus wanted his movement to be a practice based one and not a text based one, where people did nothing but bicker and argue about which interpretation of which quote is the exclusive truth. I don't think Jesus necessarily wanted a bible at all. If he did, he certainly could have jotted down something himself.

So I don't think it's possible to know exactly what Jesus said, or especially what he meant. Instead of being one, narrow path toward salvation, maybe there are many. Maybe there are many different, viable interpretations of what salvation even means. Instead of excluding people and saying that, no, only MY interpretation is the correct one, maybe Christians should be more open toward people working on their own interpretation of salvation in their own way. Instead of many denominations being seen as a problem, it could be a source of strength and enhanced dialogue. That way, Jesus' message could be one of universal inclusiveness instead of being the private property of the elect few.

Originally posted by rwingett
I didn't say that the problem of denominations is hopeless. My point was that it shouldn't be interpreted as a problem at all. Given the way in which the bible was written and compiled, I don't believe that you can have any firm idea of what Jesus actually said, and therefore think it is ludicrous to say that any particular interpretation, and only that int ...[text shortened]... e one of universal inclusiveness instead of being the private property of the elect few.

many denominations could be a problem or a scource of strength,
i hope the latter

Originally posted by karoly aczel
many denominations could be a problem or a scource of strength,
i hope the latter

Of course it's a strength, you heretic. I wouldn't have said it if it wasn't the absolute truth.

Originally posted by rwingett
Of course it's a strength, you heretic. I wouldn't have said it if it wasn't the absolute truth.

oh i'm a heretic now am i? thnx for letting me know,i was completely in the dark b4 your wise comments

Originally posted by karoly aczel
yeah ,look i just went back through this thread and i will have to apologize. Sorry . (although i still don't rightly know what you two were on about)

Martin Luther's campaign to have the Bible printed in everyday language is what spawned the Protestant Reformation and subsequently, the 38,000 or so additional denominations. Before that, other than the verifiably heretical spin-off cults, there was but 1 denomination.

So it has everything to do with this thread, wouldn't you say?

karoly, I think rwingett was using sarcasm/dry humor when he/she called you a heretic. I love that kind of humor.

Anyway, yes indeed I think we are better off with all the "homemade" denominations when you consider the alternative which is the Priests having sole access to the meaning of the Scriptures (written in language we can't read) and therefore "translating" it for us and having to be trusted not to be twisting the meaning to suit their own purposes.

I mean, us laypeople can make big mistakes translating the meaning of Scripture... for Pete's sake, think of the KKK, they use a verse or two out of the Old Testament to justify their actions. It's a dangerous thing for us to just willy-nilly decide for ourselves what the Scriptures mean. But it's still better; we just have to accept the responsibility and rebuke the ignorant people who put unjustified spins on the verses.

It's circular reasoning I know, but the litmus test for safe doctrine is if the rest of the Bible bears it out. So you can interpret a verse however you like; but all it takes is one contradictory verse of the Bible to shoot your idea down.

For example:

I believe reality is illusory and a holographic construct. The Bible doesn't shoot that down at all so I can believe it all I want but the Bible doesn't support it either so I can't call it anything more than a personal belief.

But if I were to say, like some people who call themselves Christian, that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross but instead continued to preach to other nations in the territory... I would then have to be classified as a heretic because to claim that is to claim the Bible--the Word of God--isn't correct.

Originally posted by rwingett
This inherent multiplicity of viewpoints SHOULD be Christianity's greatest asset,

Surely, by applying that constraint you are in fact giving a view point which is both rigid and denies the validity of other conflicting viewpoints?