apparently, i say apparently because i had to check it wasn't a dream, Galvo and myself were being, 'called out' on the issue of whether one needs to join Jehovahs witnesses organisation to get into heaven, a question which initially struck me as being silly for reason cited in another thread. We objected on the basis that scripturally its almost impossible to say who gets to heaven, but it was not good enough and the demands for a yes or no answer were met with various protestations on our part, for that very reason, eventually leading to us being termed evasive and dishonest. Well for those who are honestly interested, let us examine one or two biblical truths and hopefully one may draw their own conclusions. It is not an attempt of course to redeem our name, for that would be to justify the accusation, but to explore certain principles which have a bearing on the subject.
firstly, no one went to heaven before Jesus Christ, yes or no?
(John 3:13) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. . .
(Acts 2:34) . . .Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
(Hebrews 9:8) . . .Thus the holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing. . . (a reference to the holy place heaven itself, not the actual temple or tabernacle as it was known)
therefore, what are we to conclude from the above verses? that no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ, that therefore, not all good persons go to heaven, as David, who was termed the anointed of God, clearly did not. Some may try to find fault with Christ's words, in the case of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, but there is no scriptural evidence to state that these entered heaven, indeed, Christ's very own words would negate this.
in summary, no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ, therefore not all good people go to heaven.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJob 14:13-15 (New International Version)
apparently, i say apparently because i had to check it wasn't a dream, Galvo and myself were being, 'called out' on the issue of whether one needs to join Jehovahs witnesses organisation to get into heaven, a question which initially struck me as being silly for reason cited in another thread. We objected on the basis that scripturally its almost im y, no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ, therefore not all good people go to heaven.
13 "If only you would hide me in the grave [a]
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal [b] to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made.
This shows that Job did not know of a heavenly resurrection as he knew he would be in the grave and waitng for an earthly resurrection.
More proof from the Bible that not all good people go to heaven
Originally posted by robbie carrobie2 Kings 2: 1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 Elijah said to Elisha, "Stay here; the LORD has sent me to Bethel."
apparently, i say apparently because i had to check it wasn't a dream, Galvo and myself were being, 'called out' on the issue of whether one needs to join Jehovahs witnesses organisation to get into heaven, a question which initially struck me as being silly for reason cited in another thread. We objected on the basis that scripturally its almost im ...[text shortened]... y, no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ, therefore not all good people go to heaven.
But Elisha said, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel.
3 The company of the prophets at Bethel came out to Elisha and asked, "Do you know that the LORD is going to take your master from you today?"
"Yes, I know," Elisha replied, "but do not speak of it."
4 Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here, Elisha; the LORD has sent me to Jericho."
And he replied, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went to Jericho.
5 The company of the prophets at Jericho went up to Elisha and asked him, "Do you know that the LORD is going to take your master from you today?"
"Yes, I know," he replied, "but do not speak of it."
6 Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here; the LORD has sent me to the Jordan."
And he replied, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So the two of them walked on.
7 Fifty men of the company of the prophets went and stood at a distance, facing the place where Elijah and Elisha had stopped at the Jordan. 8 Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?"
"Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied.
10 "You have asked a difficult thing," Elijah said, "yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise not."
11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.
game...set...match! don't bring that week $h*t in here
Originally posted by duecerare you calling Jesus a liar? and i would mind if you kept you language above board.
2 Kings 2: 1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 Elijah said to Elisha, "Stay here; the LORD has sent me to Bethel."
But Elisha said, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel.
3 The company of the prophets at Be [b]game...set...match! don't bring that week $h*t in here[/b]
here it is again, in case you didn't notice,
(John 3:13) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from
heaven, the Son of man. . .
(Acts 2:34) . . .Actually David did not ascend to the heavens
the words of Jesus Christ, whom we hold, did not once utter a falsehood, so who are we to believe, Duecers interpretation or the words of Christ? so if you shall be pleased, try to stick the the scriptures cited before offering up these rather less than original refutations, if you please.
Originally posted by duecerExactly, also there is enough evidence to show that Enoch went as well becuase 'he did not see death' and he was 'Taken by God' and he was 'Translated' .. not too sure what all that means .. neither do the JWs by the way.
2 Kings 2: 1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 Elijah said to Elisha, "Stay here; the LORD has sent me to Bethel."
But Elisha said, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel.
3 The company of the prophets at Be ...[text shortened]... [b]game...set...match! don't bring that week $h*t in here[/b]
The fact that Christ said that no man has ascended into the heaveans means that there must be several levels of heavens. There is not enough information in the Bible for us to understand the mystery behind what is meant by heaven.
Any religious sect claiming to know all about 'heaven' are jokers.
Originally posted by Rajk999are you also calling Jesus a liar?
Exactly, also there is enough evidence to show that Enoch went as well becuase 'he did not see death' and he was 'Taken by God' and he was 'Translated' .. not too sure what all that means .. neither do the JWs by the way.
The fact that Christ said that no man has ascended into the heaveans means that there must be several levels of heavens. There is not e ...[text shortened]... s meant by heaven.
Any religious sect claiming to know all about 'heaven' are jokers.
here it is again, in case you didn't notice,
(John 3:13) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. . .
(Acts 2:34) . . .Actually David did not ascend to the heavens
try sticking to what is actually written in the Bible, not what is not.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieElijah went into heaven, and Christ said no man has ascended into heaven.
are you also calling Jesus a liar?
here it is again, in case you didn't notice,
(John 3:13) . . .Moreover, [b]no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. . .
(Acts 2:34) . . .Actually David did not ascend to the heavens
try sticking to what is actually written in the Bible, not what is not.[/b]
The only explanation which will not conflict with what Christ said (like I said before) is that there are several levels of heaven and there is insufficient information to fully understand what heaven is. There is no need to understand all the terms and expressions in the Bible.
An explination for you and if you will notice Elijah was still alive 5 years after this event..........
As long as Jesus was in the flesh, he could not go into heaven, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Cor. 15:50) By his giving up his flesh, which he gave “in behalf of the life of the world,” and by his being resurrected “in the spirit,” the way was opened for those who would be invited to the kingdom of the heavens.—John 6:51; 1 Pet. 3:18.
Furthermore, Christ’s resurrection is said to be “a guarantee to all men” that God will resurrect others. (Acts 17:31; 24:15) This would not be true if God had been resurrecting righteous men to heaven all through the preceding centuries.
How, then, are we to understand the Bible account about the prophet Elijah, which reads: “As they [Elijah and Elisha] were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and Elijah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” (2 Ki. 2:11) Did Elijah actually go into the heavens of God? Or did he die?
We have the words of God’s greatest prophet, Jesus Christ, who resided in the heavens with his Father for untold centuries prior to his coming to earth. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) Speaking of John the Baptist, Jesus said: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (Matt. 11:11) Accordingly, Elijah, not being greater than John, could not be in heaven.
What, then, were the “heavens” into which Elijah was taken by the windstorm? These were the physical heavens, the atmosphere, the “expanse,” also called “Heaven” at Genesis 1:6-8. A windstorm could exist only in this atmospheric expanse, not in the spirit realm of Jehovah’s heavenly presence. Elijah was carried up out of Elisha’s sight by the windstorm.
The Bible does not say that Elijah died on that occasion.
(((((((As a matter of fact, Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet at least five years later, apparently over in the territory of Judah.)))))))))
The Bible tells us: “Eventually there came a writing to [Jehoram, king of Judah] from Elijah the prophet.” This letter foretold the sickness and death of Jehoram because of his wrong, idolatrous course. (2 Chron. 21:12-15) A further evidence that Elijah did not die at the time of being taken into the “heavens” is that his servant and successor Elisha did not then hold the customary period of mourning for his master.—Compare 2 Samuel 19:1; 1 Chronicles 7:22; 2 Chronicles 35:24.
Originally posted by galveston75Enoch did not die. Explain that one.
An explination for you and if you will notice Elijah was still alive 5 years after this event..........
As long as Jesus was in the flesh, he could not go into heaven, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Cor. 15:50) By his giving up his flesh, which he gave “in behalf of the life of the world,” and by his being resurrected “in the ...[text shortened]... period of mourning for his master.—Compare 2 Samuel 19:1; 1 Chronicles 7:22; 2 Chronicles 35:24.
Originally posted by Rajk999the scriptures clearly indicate, as per the words of Christ, than no one has gone to heaven prior to Christ, I take it we hold Jesus was telling the truth? in the case of Elijah, Enoch and Moses it must have a different meaning. For example, the Bible uses the term 'heavens', as simply the physical universe apart from the earth, the expanse surrounding the earth, it uses it in a figurative sense to refer to the human governments etc etc there is no need to go beyond what is written in an attempt to ascertain what is the proper interpretation, what is sure is, that the way into heaven was not opened up, prior to Christ's sacrifice and that Jesus was the first person to ascend into the heavens (as per his words, emphasis on his words), in the sense of standing before the presence of God.
Elijah went into heaven, and Christ said no man has ascended into heaven.
The only explanation which will not conflict with what Christ said (like I said before) is that there are several levels of heaven and there is insufficient information to fully understand what heaven is. There is no need to understand all the terms and expressions in the Bible.
Originally posted by galveston75brilliant!
An explination for you and if you will notice Elijah was still alive 5 years after this event..........
As long as Jesus was in the flesh, he could not go into heaven, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Cor. 15:50) By his giving up his flesh, which he gave “in behalf of the life of the world,” and by his being resurrected “in the ...[text shortened]... period of mourning for his master.—Compare 2 Samuel 19:1; 1 Chronicles 7:22; 2 Chronicles 35:24.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHow do you explain Enoch?
apparently, i say apparently because i had to check it wasn't a dream, Galvo and myself were being, 'called out' on the issue of whether one needs to join Jehovahs witnesses organisation to get into heaven, a question which initially struck me as being silly for reason cited in another thread. We objected on the basis that scripturally its almost im y, no one went to heaven prior to Jesus Christ, therefore not all good people go to heaven.
😳
Never mind.
Originally posted by whodeywhat about Enoch?, the scriptures clearly state that his life ended prematurely. (365 was quite young in comparison to his contemporaries)
How do you explain Enoch?
😳
Never mind.
(Genesis 5:23-24) . . .So all the days of Enoch amounted to three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.
in what sense that God 'took him', so that 'he did not see death', is not entirely clear. Indeed in view of Christs own words (again emphasis on Christs words), it could not have meant that he entered into the presence of God in heaven.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou are a Bible twister. The words of the Bible are clear that Enoch did not see death. The fact that you dont understand what that means does not make it any less true :
what about Enoch?, the scriptures clearly state that his life ended prematurely. (365 was quite young in comparison to his contemporaries)
(Genesis 5:23-24) . . .So all the days of Enoch amounted to three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.
in what sense that God 'took h ...[text shortened]... Christs words), it could not have meant that he entered into the presence of God in heaven.
HEB 11:5 By faith ENOCH was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePlease tell me you don't believe someone really lived to be 365yrs of age Rob?
what about Enoch?, the scriptures clearly state that his life ended prematurely. (365 was quite young in comparison to his contemporaries)
(Genesis 5:23-24) . . .So all the days of Enoch amounted to three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.
in what sense that God 'took h ...[text shortened]... Christs words), it could not have meant that he entered into the presence of God in heaven.