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Originally posted by KellyJayYes, thats what I was trying to say-that God is a whole. Still a wholistic concept can be derived in things , such as in a superconductor. As far as I understand it, a superconductor has a huge amount of energy but it runs around WITHIN the superconductor so you cant actually measure any energy being emitted. Sorry, that may be a bad analogy for you, and it is a difficult concept to convey. Lets see if we can get anyone else to chime in...
I think the answer is no, you get God not part of God.
I am looking forward to seeing how others view this question too.
Kelly
Originally posted by karoly aczelI think you have said it, "God is a whole" He is, "I am that I am". I don't think
Yes, thats what I was trying to say-that God is a whole. Still a wholistic concept can be derived in things , such as in a superconductor. As far as I understand it, a superconductor has a huge amount of energy but it runs around WITHIN the superconductor so you cant actually measure any energy being emitted. Sorry, that may be a bad analogy for you, and it is a difficult concept to convey. Lets see if we can get anyone else to chime in...
everyone here quite gets my question yet.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayKelly, what do you think Paul meant that he wished to "gain Christ" ?
I think the answer is no, you get God not part of God.
I am looking forward to seeing how others view this question too.
Kelly
Did he not already have Christ ? How then was he interested to "gain Christ" (Phil. 3:8) ?
The whole section of Philippians 3 from verse 7 through 11, I think, is helpful to read.
Paul who had Christ as indwelling Lord and Savior for certain, wanted to stretch forth to "gain Christ".
Originally posted by jaywillKey in on the words "A little bit of..." I understand gaining Christ and
Kelly, what do you think Paul meant that he wished to [b]"gain Christ" ?
Did he not already have Christ ? How then was he interested to "gain Christ" (Phil. 3:8) ?
The whole section of Philippians 3 from verse 7 through 11, I think, is helpful to read.
Paul who had Christ as indwelling Lord and Savior for certain, wanted to stretch forth to "gain Christ".[/b]
having a relationship with God. My question is more about God Himself
not so much on gaining Him.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayI am happy to read yours also.
No worries, always glad to read your posts.
Kelly
I think God is wroughting Himself into our beings.
As believers in Christ we have God. Yet we are in the process of absorbing Him for saturation and deification.
So I think a paradoxical answer to your question is in order. We have all of God yet He is still working Himself into out beings, especially our souls.
I think the full expression of God worked into man is a corporate expression rather than an individual one. The New Jerusalem is a corporate expression of God worked fully into man.
So the aggregate result is God in billions of people corporately. I do not think each of us individually can fully express God. He wants a collective and corporate expression of God mingled with man.
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Originally posted by jaywillOur understanding of God and God are two different things, our becoming
I am happy to read yours also.
I think God is wroughting Himself into our beings.
As believers in Christ we have God. Yet we are in the process of absorbing Him for saturation and deification.
So I think a paradoxical answer to your question is in order. We have all of God yet He is still working Himself into out beings, especially our souls.
...[text shortened]... y can fully express God. He wants a collective and corporate expression of God mingled with man.
Christ like and Christ are two different things. The pie example I used
earlier really shows what I'm trying to get at, if I eat a piece of pie I only
have that piece within me, all that which I do not eat remains untouched
by me. If God is always in His complete form at all times that could never
happen with God as does with pie! God is always everywhere in His
complete form, quite unlike all limited things in this universe that has
boundaries and limitations, you can eat just a part of pie. This of course
shows God is not everything and everything is God as far as the universe
is concern, the universe is just a created place holder to put all things
that is in it.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayIs the problem of pantheism what you are addressing ?
Our understanding of God and God are two different things, our becoming
Christ like and Christ are two different things. The pie example I used
earlier really shows what I'm trying to get at, if I eat a piece of pie I only
have that piece within me, all that which I do not eat remains untouched
by me. If God is always in His complete form at all times t ...[text shortened]... s concern, the universe is just a created place holder to put all things
that is in it.
Kelly
Originally posted by jaywillI don't see pantheism as a problem, it simply is a belief system that does
Is the problem of pantheism what you are addressing ?
not line up with scripture and the God of the Bible. There are a lot of beliefs
that fall into that mold some even have "Christian" attached to them. So
do you now see what I'm asking, can God cut off or hand off just a small
piece of Himself and you don't get all of God?
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayI think God has some communicable attributes that He dispenses to man.
I don't see pantheism as a problem, it simply is a belief system that does
not line up with scripture and the God of the Bible. There are a lot of beliefs
that fall into that mold some even have "Christian" attached to them. So
do you now see what I'm asking, can God cut off or hand off just a small
piece of Himself and you don't get all of God?
Kelly
And God has some incommunicable attributes which He cannot impart to man.
This is the reason why we see Christ and the Body of Christ as the Head and the Body.
Now if I hit your arm, you are likely to say "Jay, stop hitting ME". You may say "Jay, stop hitting my arm." But because your body is really a part of YOU you are likely to say "Jay, you better stop hitting me. My arm is a part of me Jay."
Well this is how the New Testament speaks of the relationship of the Body of Christ with Christ. In one portion the Body or the church is called "the Christ" .
"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." (1 Cor. 12:12)
Here Paul did not say "so also is [the church]". He said "so also is ... THE CHRIST".
This gives us the ground to say that the church is part of Christ. And when Saul persecuted the church, the Lord Jesus said "Why do you persecute ME ?" And I think Paul NEVER forgot that revelation. The church of Christ was a part of Christ and the Body of Christ.
Yet the Body does have a HEAD - Jesus Christ. So it is somewhat paradoxical. The Body is "the Christ" and the HEAD is certianly "the Christ".
His Godhead is not communicable. But His divne life He dispenses into man. So Athanasius said "God became man so that man might become God."
We, the redeemed, become God in life and nature, but not in His Godhead. His communicable attributes He will dispense into His people. But there are non-cummunicable attributes which He alone possesses forever.
From another point of view, for the Bride of Christ to MATCH Christ and be a counterpart of Christ, she must be of the same nature as Christ. So as Eve was taken OUT of Adam so the New Jerusalem (the enlarged church) is taken OUT of Christ - is taken out of the incarnated God.
The one became two. Then the two became one in Adam and Eve.
In God and the saved also, the ONE became two. Then the two are brought together to be one.
Originally posted by jaywillSo do you get short changed with God at any point when you become one
I think God has some communicable attributes that He dispenses to man.
And God has some incommunicable attributes which He cannot impart to man.
This is the reason why we see Christ and the Body of Christ as the Head and the Body.
Now if I hit your arm, you are likely to say "Jay, stop hitting ME". You may say "Jay, stop hitting my arm." But bec ...[text shortened]... ved also, the ONE became two. Then the two are brought together to be one.
with Him, or do you get God period? I'm not talking about grasping all of
God, or enjoying some gift of God, but does God ever give you just a little
bit of Himself to anyone and more to another of His person. Now some of
us may know Him better than others of us do, but is that because God
holds back or we hold off? I'm not clear what you mean by your two types
of "attributes" you will have to explain what an "attribute" is in your way
of thinking.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayMaybe this will help.
So do you get short changed with God at any point when you become one
with Him, or do you get God period? I'm not talking about grasping all of
God, or enjoying some gift of God, but does God ever give you just a little
bit of Himself to anyone and more to another of His person. Now some of
us may know Him better than others of us do, but is that becaus ...[text shortened]... tributes" you will have to explain what an "attribute" is in your way
of thinking.
Kelly
1.) Colossians 1:12 - "Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you for a share of the allotted portion of the saints in the light."
Notice that the Colossian saints receive an "alloted PORTION". This "portion" is a portion of the enjoyment of the Triune God. The word picture should remind us of Joshua dividing up the Promised Land into portions for the 12 tribes of Israel. Each tribe was "alloted" a PORTION of the good land to hold and enjoy.
The good land of Canaan has its antitype in Jesus Christ. So the believers in the church in Colossi are aportioned an allotment of this unsearchably rich Jesus Christ.
An "alloted PORTION" should indicate that a certain part of the inexahausitible rich God is alloted to each of God's people. Is this reasonable ?
2.) Same book - Colossian 1:27b,28 - " ... what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ."
Notice Paul's expression, "every man full grown in Christ".
Each individual man the apostles labored over in fellowship, teaching, shepherding, care, in order that they would GROW. He does not mean grow in the natural life. He means GROW in the spiritual life, in the divine life, in Christ.
To grow in Christ is to encrease in the enjoyment of Christ. To grow in Christ is to die more and more to Adam and be found more and more in the enjoyment of the indwelling Christ.
It was not the apostless' desire that any be retarded. Nor was it their desire that any be stopped or stunted in growth. It was their desire that they would be able to present everyone they labored over "FULL GROWN in Christ".
This implies Christ encreasing within them. This implies Christ growing in them. Today He is in their emotions a little bit. Tomorrow He encreases and saturates MORE of thier personality. Paul labors that they would GROW spiritually to be permeated with more and more of the living Jesus Christ.
So we have a portion. And we should grow. Does this help ?
In the natural world when you EAT you grow. More and more the FOOD you eat becomes the constituent of your body. Well in the spiritual realm we also have to EAT Christ. We have to stop eating on ADAM and learn in this and that situation to EAT Christ, absorb Him up into our personality.
If you do not have this doctrine I am sure that you have this personal experience. You have to encrease your enjoyment of Christ.
As you encrease you are being more and more transformed into His image, and you are growing in Christ:
3.) "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17)
This is being transformed from one degree to another degree to another degree. This is encreasing in the reflection and clarity of expressing Jesus Christ in your personality - from glory to glory to glory, by degrees.
So we have a portion. So we have to grow to be full grown. And we must be transformed from one degree of glory to another - succcessively. So we must "gain Christ" in that regard.
There are some other helpful passages:
4.) "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm], God's building." (1 Cor. 3:9)
The believers in the local church, the church in Corinth, are God's farm, God's cultivated land. Apollos waters the seed of life. Paul may plant the seed of life. But God gives the GROWTH. The normal church life must be a FARM upon which Christ is GROWING within the Christians.
"You are God's cultivated land, God's building." The BUILDING up of the church is through the GROWING of God's Christ within the believers in the church life. By thier GROWING in divine life they are also being BUILT together for a corporate expression. We must pray that God put us in a place where we can GROW spiritually.
Each of us seems to have a MEASURE of grace - "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ." (Eph. 4:7)
Doesn't the word "measure" signal a certain degree ? I think we may grown in our measure of grace, of course. But the point here is that we have different measures of this grace. We have grace and we should be growing in grace.
The Body of Christ GROWS by the function and release of the spiritual MEASURE in each of the supplying parts of the Body:
"Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together t hrough every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the MEASURE of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (Eph. 4:16)
All the constituents of Christ's Body must be serving and supplying the Body with the supply of the grace they have received in varying measures. Their measure of spiritual grace must be FOR the Body, for the building up of other members of the Body. This way the Body is building itself up in love. All the members, in whatever MEASURE of grace they possess, supply the blessing of that measure into the Lord's body of believers.
This is a little deeper perhaps. But it should also indicate differing MEASURES of divine life in the many members as well as the growing of those measures.
I don't know if this squarely addresses your question. We certainly have God in our spirit. We encrease as He spreads out from our innermost spirit into our personality and soul. Eventually He spreads out into our body and mortality is swallowed up in divine life.
Paul and his fellow apostles labored to present us, not stinted or dwarfed in divine life, but FULGROWN in Christ. We have Him and we need to grow in Him. We are to be on God's FARM. God gives the growth.
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Originally posted by jaywillOkay, I am not sure you are getting what I'm asking.
Maybe this will help.
1.) [b]Colossians 1:12 - "Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you for a share of the allotted portion of the saints in the light."
Notice that the Colossian saints receive an "alloted PORTION". This "portion" is a portion of the enjoyment of the Triune God. The word picture should remind We are to be on God's FARM. God gives the growth.[/b]
I get we are going to grow into knowledge of God.
I get that we are going to recieve a reward.
I get the allotted portion.
I'm asking you and everyone does God divide Himself up into little pieces?
When you have a relationship with God, is it only a little tiny piece of God
or all of God you have a relationship with? I get we are like cups that can
only contain so much, but that does not answer my question with respect to
God and only getting a piece of God.
God in the bottom of the ocean is the same God I speak to in my home,
the same God others talk to in their homes, and so on. Is God complete at
all times everywhere without exception? I'm not talking about our
understanding, I get we grow into greater understanding, but that isn't
God growing or becoming more than He was, that is us enlarging our
knowledge of what already is.
Kelly