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Originally posted by checkbaiterIt is not that hard to be saved. We are not talking about maturity of spiritual growth. We are talking in this case about being justified by believing.
Yes, but this is why I have a problem with this. I would have a problem watching my mother and father in anguish, gnashing of teeth, etc. It just does not fit. I wish you would continue to pursue this study with an open mind and look at both sides thoroughly before committing yourself either way. The wording of the bible still says they would need eterna ...[text shortened]... n open mind on topics like this, but I am very close to being totally convinced of annihilation.
It is not justified by understanding deeper things of theology.
A person looses a job. He for the first time in his life feels the need to pray. He heard about the name Jesus. He believes to ask Christ for help. He believes for this time that God has raised Him from the dead that that Christ is useful to him to solve his immediate problem.
Because he has believed into Christ, even though he had so superficial knowledge, he is saved. Perhaps he never grows much and still cherishes many disgruntled complaints against religion.
Yet God is faithful.
My point is that it is not that hard to believe into Christ. It is more of a challenge, after that initial step, to go on to be an overcoming and strong believer.
There may be many who once entered into eternal redemption that appear to us not much different from the worldly unbeliever. It is not to be encouraged. But it is a fact of life that many will enter into eternal life probably in this way.
The other matters I can open mindedly fellowship with you. But then you too have to be opened to the word of God on this.
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, but this is why I have a problem with this. I would have a problem watching my mother and father in anguish, gnashing of teeth, etc. It just does not fit. I wish you would continue to pursue this study with an open mind and look at both sides thoroughly before committing yourself either way. The wording of the bible still says they would need eterna ...[text shortened]... n open mind on topics like this, but I am very close to being totally convinced of annihilation.
Yes, but this is why I have a problem with this.
You think I like it?
You think I have no problem with this eternal punishment teaching ?
If there is not the specter of eternal punishment than Jesus Christ was unrighteous to utter many things about it which He said.
Paul solemnly instructed his younger co-worker Timothy to be impartial and not have personal preferencial leanings toward only desired aspects of the Gospel -
"I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." ( 1 Timothy 5:21)
Paul also told the Ephesians that he held back nothing that was profitable for them to learn.
"Serving the Lord as a slave with all humility and tears and trials ... How I did not withhold any of those things that are profitable by not declaring them to you and by not teaching you publically and from house to house, solemnly testifying ... repentance unto God and faith in our Lord Jesus." (See Acts 20:20,21)
I believe some of those tears of Paul came as he held back nothing of the truth of the Gospel. He shared things which he himself probably wished he did not have to teach.
Originally posted by sonshipI agree. You speak of what I call renewed mind, maturity. Sure, there are many saved who never grow, they drink milk all their earthly lives. My point is, never think you are so mature that you have stopped learning. I have made this mistake. I will not get to that point until the "Gathering". That is why I said I lean towards annihilation. I also said I am almost convinced of it. But I am always open on this and many other issues.
It is not that hard to be saved. We are not talking about maturity of spiritual growth. We are talking in this case about being justified by believing.
It is not justified by understanding deeper things of theology.
A person looses a job. He for the first time in his life feels the need to pray. He heard about the name Jesus. He believes to ask Chri ...[text shortened]... dedly fellowship with you. But then [b]you too have to be opened to the word of God on this.[/b]
I am only convinced that Jesus loves me, that he died for my sins and that God raised him from the dead. I have believed this since the mid seventies. I am not to full maturity, but I am not where I was yesterday.
God continues to reveal my frailty, my ignorance and I continue to learn and grow.
Having said this, he has not instilled it in my heart that he will torture unbelievers forever. He has given me assurance that he is kind, merciful and loving. I also see many places in the bible that cause me to reach these conclusions. But, as you say, yes, I am open to these matters.
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Having said this, he has not instilled it in my heart that he will torture unbelievers forever. He has given me assurance that he is kind, merciful and loving. I also see many places in the bible that cause me to reach these conclusions. But, as you say, yes, I am open to these matters.
It is a dreadful subject. I am tempted to trade discussion with you perhaps what are 5 or 6 of the most useful things you have practiced in order to grow in the Lord.
But I am a little curious -
Has He given you assurance about Who it was who bled and died, tortured by men and made sin by God on that cross ?
Tell me you have some assurance about seeing to what degree God Himself went that the sinner be saved.
He was made sin for us. He carried up in His body our sins. And not only ours but the sins of whole world as well. He died in the form of Satan himself. He who was the Word from eternity was tormented and was lifted up as the brass serpent - Serpent - a clear symbol of Satan.
Do we grasp to what END this God of love and mercy went ?
I think this will take us to eternity to appreciate WHO it was upon that cross - tormented there under human torture and Divine wrath.
And the unbeliever refuses Him? Rejects Him?
Originally posted by sonshipAll this worry about hell is totally un-necessary since there is no such thing, like the op says, a loving god would never send anyone to hell. All this hell crap is just one more case of men writing words not inspired by a god but inspired by the desire to control people and one way is to scare the jebesus out of people by positing an ultimate bogeyman.Having said this, he has not instilled it in my heart that he will torture unbelievers forever. He has given me assurance that he is kind, merciful and loving. I also see many places in the bible that cause me to reach these conclusions. But, as you say, yes, I am open to these matters.
It is a dreadful subject. I am tempted to trade dis ...[text shortened]... ted there under human torture and Divine wrath.
And the unbeliever refuses Him? Rejects Him?
It is so clear to me that billions of people are being duped, have been duped, will continue to be duped by all this crap, it is holding up the maturity of the human race, depending on these man made crutches.
Maybe some weak minded people have been helped by all this but the fact remains millions of people have died in religious wars and a real god would put its metaphorical foot down over such issues. The FACT that that never happened indicates quite clearly the insane nature of these religions of war.
Originally posted by sonshipYes, the son of God died a horrible death. I cannot fathom the horrific pain he went through. The Roman Crucifixion was the worst punishment that could be inflicted upon a human being, not to mention the humiliation. And I also understand how he hung on, until it was accomplished for you and me.Having said this, he has not instilled it in my heart that he will torture unbelievers forever. He has given me assurance that he is kind, merciful and loving. I also see many places in the bible that cause me to reach these conclusions. But, as you say, yes, I am open to these matters.
It is a dreadful subject. I am tempted to trade dis ...[text shortened]... ted there under human torture and Divine wrath.
And the unbeliever refuses Him? Rejects Him?
For the joy that was set before him. He reminded himself what this was for, what God's plan was.
I also have a difficult time understanding how he could do this for a worm like myself. I fully understand that I am not worthy, none of us are.
God has always been satisfied in himself. He is in need of nothing.
For his own sake he went through with this plan to redeem mankind. He is love, and he has purposed in himself to share this love, to reach out. He always reaches out first.
The only thing we could do is to give ourselves to him. We owe our lives to him who had no sin. We should obey and give our all.
God is pure, holy, there is no evil in him, sin is like a cancer to him. That is why in the end he must destroy it once and for all, never to be seen nor reminded of it's filth ever again.
Never again will he find iniquity in any of his people, like he found in Lucifer.
He now has a new Morning Star, our Lord, our hero, Christ Jesus.
Originally posted by checkbaiterIt wasn't the worse death the Romans came up with. One of them was the big brass horse they would stick a poor dude inside then close it up and start a fire underneath. THAT is a horrible death.
Yes, the son of God died a horrible death. I cannot fathom the horrific pain he went through. The Roman Crucifixion was the worst punishment that could be inflicted upon a human being, not to mention the humiliation. And I also understand how he hung on, until it was accomplished for you and me.
For the joy that was set before him. He reminded himsel ...[text shortened]... e, like he found in Lucifer.
He now has a new Morning Star, our Lord, our hero, Christ Jesus.
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Yes, the son of God died a horrible death. I cannot fathom the horrific pain he went through. The Roman Crucifixion was the worst punishment that could be inflicted upon a human being, not to mention the humiliation. And I also understand how he hung on, until it was accomplished for you and me.
You make no mention of Him being under the judgment of God for sin.
Christ hung on the cross for six hours. The first three hours He received all the human beings could do to Him in torture. But from the 9th hour the things in the universe occurred which are not under man's control. Only God can control the things in the second phase of three hours of His crucifixion.
"Now from the sixth hour darkness fell over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthami? that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:45,46)
The sixth hour was 12:00 noon, and the ninth was 3:00 a.m. (Mark 15:25), until the ninth hour, 3:00 p.m. He suffered on the cross for six hours. In the first three hours He was persecuted by men for doing God's will; in the last three hours He was judged by God to accomplish our redemption. It was during this time that God counted Him as our Substitute who suffered for our sin (Isaiah 53:10). Darkness fell over all the land (v.45) because our sin and sins and all negative things were being dealt with there; and because of our sin God forsook Him (v.46) [footnote 54(1) of Matthew, Recovery Version Bible]
You are appalled only at the persecution of Jesus by man. He also endured being made sin for us -
"Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." ( 2 Cor. 5:21)
The supernatural darkness upon the world and the tearing of the temple curtain from the top down to the bottom were things not under man's control but under God's. And in this phase supernatural agony of being made sin and being forsaken by His Father were a suffering greater than the whip, the nails, and the crown of thorns.
He did not say "Father why have you forsaken Me" for the eternal fellowship was cut off. And as sin itself He as a man was forsaken by God - "My God, My God Why have your FORSAKEN me ?"
God forsook Christ on the cross because He took the place of sonhouse and you and me, and the place of all sinners -
"For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God ..." (1 Pet. 3:18) He bore our sins (1 Pet. 2:24; Isa. 53:6).
Maybe you only see the natural persecution and not the supernatural agony of His carrying up our sins in His body unto the tree and drinking the cup of wrath from the forsaking of His God.
For the joy that was set before him. He reminded himself what this was for, what God's plan was.
I also have a difficult time understanding how he could do this for a worm like myself. I fully understand that I am not worthy, none of us are.
We were not only unworthy. We, in Him, were judged by God making Him our Substitute. That Righteous One from eternity being made sin in all of its filthiness on OUR unworthy and loathsome place.
This was something of the supernatural. And He did this that the separation between us and God might be removed. The supernatural rending of the separating curtain in the temple from the top (not from the bottom up) but from the top down, was torn in two.
And behold, the veil of the temple was split in two from top to bottom, and the earth was shaken and the rocks split. (Matt. 27:51)
Supernatural events from the sixth hour (12:00 noon) on until the ninth hour (3:0 pm). Christ bore under this divine wrath for the sinners.
God has always been satisfied in himself. He is in need of nothing.
Because of His eternal righteousness HE NEEDED a way to deal justly with man's sins in order to save us in His great love for us.
Do you get a glimpse of what it was for the Son of God to be this avenue of Judgment on our behalf ?
"The blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son cleanses us from all sin."
The rebel sinner cares nothing if you try to soften the offense of rejecting God's offer. I have never once seen a sinner more appreciative of Christ because he was told annihilation will be the lot of the unsaved.
Their contempt is unmoved. They sense your own weakness and are liable to exploit it rather than admire it.
You think sinners will be more inclined to repent if you inform them of escape into nothingness at spurning the spilt blood of the Son of God? I've never seen it yet.
For his own sake he went through with this plan to redeem mankind. He is love, and he has purposed in himself to share this love, to reach out. He always reaches out first.
In His love He drank the bitterest cup of wrath from God - being forsaken by God as a man - "My God, My God Why have You forsaken Me?"
The prophet Isaiah - "He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, And He will be satisfied; By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous.
And He will bear their iniquities ... Because He poured out His life unto death And was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressor." (Isaiah 53:11,12b)
It was not just the Roman tortures. It was the crushing under the wrath of God -
"But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He makes Himself an offering for sin." (Isa. 53:10)
Just before the fateful three hours of His being crushed under the forsaking of God, He made intercession for the world of sinners -
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." ( Luke 23:34)
Did He mean that they did not realize that they were persecuting God become a MAN ? They did not realize that they were piercing God Himself as a man -
The prophet Zechariah speaks of it dawning upon Israel at the end of the age, that their Messiah was God become a man - the Son of God - " ... and they will look upon Me whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailings as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zechariah 12:10)
God saying "They will look upon Me whom they have pierced" and now realizing what they had done in turning Him over to be crucified -- "they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son ..."
To answer that mighty petition of Jesus - "Father forgive them .." the eternal fellowship was cut off as the Son became sin for us and bore up our sins in His body ... then "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?"
On God's grounds will He forgive only based upon our believing that this One suffered and died in our place. Only by being in Christ Who became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him, will the Father remove forever man's sin from before eternal holiness and righteous judgment.
The only thing we could do is to give ourselves to him. We owe our lives to him who had no sin. We should obey and give our all.
He has purchased us. He has redeemed us out from under the curse of the law which we offended repeatedly.
"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf ..." (Galatians 3:13a)
You may think you can soften the sinner's heart by telling Him there is no eternal damnation for the rejection of the Substitute to bear their sins. But I haven't seen this happen yet.
Not all presentations of the Gospel include this aspect of the consequences of rejection of the Lord Jesus. But there is a time also to mention this for men are so hardened in their hearts to cling to their guilty sinful lives.
God is pure, holy, there is no evil in him, sin is like a cancer to him. That is why in the end he must destroy it once and for all, never to be seen nor reminded of it's filth ever again.
His very pureness and holiness is the cause of His wrath against the unrepentant. Don't you see ?
Never again will he find iniquity in any of his people, like he found in Lucifer. He now has a new Morning Star, our Lord, our hero, Christ Jesus.
Yes, because of redemption, sanctification, transformation, glorification God obtains His sons. But outside of the New Jerusalem there is the trash heap of the unreconciled -
"Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates into the city.
OUTSIDE ... are the dogs and the sorcerers and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and makes a lie.
I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to you these things. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright morning star." (Revelation 22:14-16)
Originally posted by sonshipYes, He was and is our substitute for sin..He is the spotless lamb given once and for all...Yes, the son of God died a horrible death. I cannot fathom the horrific pain he went through. The Roman Crucifixion was the worst punishment that could be inflicted upon a human being, not to mention the humiliation. And I also understand how he hung on, until it was accomplished for you and me.
You make no mention of Him being under th ...[text shortened]... ight morning star." (Revelation 22:14-16) [/b]
So far I don't disagree with most of what you post, but I adhere to what the bible says. At least I try. I think the word of God is saying annihilation, I am at work and don't have the resources here, but I will have to post the verses later...
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I would have a problem watching my mother and father in anguish, gnashing of teeth, etc.
I think you eloquently said that God would have to wipe away your tears forever if that was the case. You know, that IS the case - that God will wipe away our tears forever. So we may expect this.
Now the difficult matter you bring up about, ie. loved parents also has its considerations.
1.) If you have believed in Christ IN SPITE of unbelieving parents then, though you love them greatly, you also realize that you narrowly escaped eternal damnation. If they are lost and you loved them greatly, you also must realize that their neglect to bring you up in the belief in the Savior endangered you.
2.) If they died unbelievers but had the forethought to at least let YOU make up your own mind, though it is sad, you have to realize that they settled into their self chosen choice. They made that end for themselves and they got what they wanted.
I would like to think that some unbelieving or agnostic parents would say to their children - "Look, here's this Bible. I personally don't believe what it says. But you go read it and make up your own mind about it. I could be wrong and I want you to decide on your own what you want to believe."
I think that is better. Though it is very sad that they may have died in their sins, at least they possibly have the comfort of knowing that if you were saved, you are not coming to the same fate (See Luke 16:27).
It is sad. But they chose. And God did not coerce them. They have the sad but self satisfaction of knowing "they did it their way. "
3.) If these perished parents opposed the Gospel and actively acted to keep you from believing, well, you may love them which is only right.
But on the other hand, did they love you above themselves? Because of their opposition to the Gospel they almost caused you to perish with them. It is noble that you love your parents. But in this case their love for you almost dragged you into hell along with themselves.
4.) Of course if they were believers and taught you also that you should believe, then that is the happiest outcome, IF you believed too.
Originally posted by sonshipMy mother was Catholic, but rarely attended church. My Father could hardly speak English. I was raised Catholic, but it did not make sense to me. I ministered to my Father in his last days, kept telling him about Jesus. I do not know if he ever understood. This is the part that bothers me. I miss them both dearly.I would have a problem watching my mother and father in anguish, gnashing of teeth, etc.
I think you eloquently said that God would have to wipe away your tears forever if that was the case. You know, [b] that IS the case - that God will wipe away our tears forever. So we may expect this.
Now the difficult matter you bring up a ...[text shortened]... you also that you should believe, then that is the happiest outcome, IF you believed too.[/b]
I could live with the fact that they will perish, but eternal torment? I could not live with that. And I do not read the verse about God wiping away our tears as being forever, as you say.
This is a section of scripture when just before this verse, we watched people being tossed in the Lake of Fire. I believe this why God will wipe away our tears. We get to watch people we may have known. Our parents, loved ones, friends, etc. This will be a very difficult time.
I believe God is too kind to let eternal torment happen. It just does not fit the picture I read of a loving Father, Merciful God. Yes, he is just and sin has consequences, but not eternal torment.
This is something a demented person would do. It borders on hate, anger and vengeance.
I know God has his day of wrath and vengeance, but not to this end.
This whole thing started with the word hell and problems with Greek Mythology.
The word “hell” is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture. In the King James Version, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades and gehenna, but most modern translations recognize that “hell” is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as “grave.” Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as “hell.”
One of Satan’s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology.
Greeks believed that man has “an immortal soul,” which they saw as the non-corporeal essence of his being that was trapped in the temporal, fleshly prison of his body until the wonderful moment when his body “died” and his “soul” could freely wing its way to Mt. Olympus, the land of Shades, or somewhere else.
Because of this belief, the Greeks had no word that corresponded with the idea expressed by the Hebrew word sheol. The closest thing they could find was hades, and that is what those who produced the Septuagint (a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek) chose as the counterpart to sheol. As they do with sheol in the Old Testament, some English versions of the Bible erroneously translate the Greek word hades as “hell” in the New Testament
Scripture most certainly does speak of a place of fire where wicked people will be “punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thess. 1:9). This is gehenna, a Greek word that the Gospel writers used in reference to what is elsewhere called “the lake of fire.” It is significant that not only wicked people will be destroyed there, but also “death and the grave” will be forever exterminated (see Rev. 20:12-15).
Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew “valley of Hinnom,” which was the city dump outside of Jerusalem. When Jesus used this word to refer to the place of the future destruction of the wicked (e.g., Matt. 10:28—still erroneously translated as “hell” even in modern Bible versions), all who heard him knew exactly what he meant. As the note on Matthew 5:22 in the NIV Study Bible says:
“The Greek word is gehenna, which derives its name from a deep ravine south of Jerusalem, the ‘valley of Hinnom.’ During the reigns of the wicked Ahaz and Manasseh, human sacrifices to the Ammonite god Molech were offered there. Josiah desecrated the valley because of the pagan worship there (2 Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:6). It became a sort of perpetually burning city dump and later a figure for the place of final punishment.”
Do you think that those listening to Jesus speak of the wicked burning in gehenna thought he meant they would burn forever? Of course not, because they knew that the garbage they took to the city dump did not continue to exist in the fire without being consumed. Rather, it burned up, and was gone. Jesus used the word gehenna to illustrate that the wicked were like the garbage, refuse worthy only of destruction. The only reason the fire continued to burn was because the whole city kept throwing their garbage there. Likewise, when it has done its job, the lake of fire will be no more.
If Revelation 20:10 is coming to your mind as an apparent contradiction to what you have read thus far, that’s great—it should. It speaks of the Devil and a couple of his henchman being thrown in the lake of fire and being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” However, the Bible was not written in English, and when we dig a bit deeper, we see that “forever and ever” in the Greek is more accurately “for ages unto ages.” In keeping with God’s decree in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would eventually “crush the head” of the Devil (that is, destroy him), Ezekiel 28:18 declares that the Devil will be “brought to ashes.” Apparently, as a fitting recompense for his monstrous evil, this will take a long time.
Some Christians argue that annihilation is not a sufficient threat to stop people, and that the threat of burning forever is a more effective deterrent to sin. However, this is looking at Scripture the wrong way. God says that it is His “kindness” that leads people to repentance (Rom. 2:4), not His threats of death, although that might work, because it is programmed within mankind to do whatever it takes to stay alive. Apparently, the thought of not existing is more terrifying to most people than the thought of living even under horrible conditions. What God does do is set forth His great love in giving His Son, and encourage people to believe in him and have everlasting life.
If God were trying to use the threat of eternal torment as a deterrent to sin, John 3:16 might read: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not burn forever, but have everlasting life.” And God could have made that plain in many other verses as well. The fact that the Bible simply says “perish” indicates that the unsaved will die, and thus exist no more. What faces those who refuse God’s gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is annihilation. They will be terminated, gone—history. And the rest of us, because of the grace of God and the work of Jesus Christ, will live happily ever after.
If my Parents chose to just enjoy this life and perish, then fine, they chose. I believe my mother, a Catholic, might have heard enough and believed, only God knows. I tried and tried explaining the bible to her. She was a good person, but being from Puerto Rico and limited English, and my spanish being limited, made it tough.
Nevertheless, I am sorry to disappoint you, but I will respectfully have to agree to disagree with your stance on this topic.
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I am sorry to disappoint you,
I am not disappointed.
Thanks for sharing your personal testimony.
It was very touching.
I had a dear younger brother who died of AIDS. And in the last of his days I also spent time speaking to him.
I had sent him some letters which I thought for months he had read.
But when he died I received a box of mail and my letters along with much other mail, he had not even opened to read.
How do you think I felt ?
However, only God knows the hearts of men. And he gave me only one slight indication that perhaps he had received Christ.
I have nothing else to say at this time.
Maybe latter. It is now a time of empathy.
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Our justifiably emotional moment is past now. I think I will deal with some of your comments briefly. I feel I should.
I believe God is too kind to let eternal torment happen.
Is He that kind to His adversaries who REFUSE to be reconciled to His authority and His righteousness.
The parable of the king whom the subjects refused to have reign over them states this -
"However, these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me." (Luke 29:27)
These were the citizens who of verse 14 - "But his citizens hated him and sent an envoy after him, saying, We do not want this man to reign over us."
In Christ's parable the rejected king personally sees to the slaying of these "enemies" . Ultimately, his kindness was not their last dealing from him.
That is the PARABLE. But in the plan words of Revelation 14 we might see the literal -
"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also shall drink the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day and night. those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11)
The point here is not that I know everyone who rejects Christ undergoes the identical same degree of punishment. Perhaps not. However, in this case He sees to it personally - "he shall be tormented ... before the holy angels and before the Lamb."
This reminds me of "bring them here and slay them before me." And why would we assume God has an infinite kind side yet no corresponding infinite side of displeasure towards irreconcilable enemies ?
It just does not fit the picture I read of a loving Father, Merciful God. Yes, he is just and sin has consequences, but not eternal torment.
There are teachings which FOCUS on one aspect of God at this time.
They are matched with other teachings which FOCUS on the opposite attribute of God at another time.
A bird has to fly with two wings. And God, as the all-inclusive Divine Person, has opposite characteristics in His kindness and severity.
I like in Revelation when one of the judging angels calls John away from the last dreadful scene of judgment to cause John to be escorted away to see God's perfect positive will. Read carefully -
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." (Rev. 21:9)
We shouldn't contemplate God's terrible judgment too much. We have to then be escorted away to see the New Jerusalem and the new heaven and new earth - the eternal life in which righteousness dwells.
I have to stop here and tend to some matters.
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I believe God is too kind to let eternal torment happen. It just does not fit the picture I read of a loving Father, Merciful God. Yes, he is just and sin has consequences, but not eternal torment.
This is something a demented person would do. It borders on hate, anger and vengeance.
I know God has his day of wrath and vengeance, but not to this end.
Annihilation cannot be "eternal punishment". Annihilation would have to be the cessation of punishment. Annihilation would be the termination of punishment.
In Matthew 18:34 Christ indicates that the cessation of torment is the cessation of punishment. "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed."
Here in this teaching, with the cessation of torture, punishment ends. But this cannot be said of the phrase "eternal punishment" - "And those shall go away into eternal punishment" (Matt. 25:46). There is no "until" as a cessation of the ongoing infliction of suffering as in Matthew 18:34.
For Jesus to say that it would be better for Judas (Matt. 26:24) had he never been born means that it would be better if he was non-existent. What is non-existent cannot be inflicted with suffering. The Lord's word indicates that Judas will never be non-existent and achieve that "better" putting him beyond possibility of punishment.
" But if this is true of Judas it is true of sinners in general. For the lost are impenitent sinners, as he was; and the difference between him and them is one of degree, not of kind. He exceeded them in the awfulness of his sin, and so he will exceed them in the severity of the punishment. But the punishment of all the lost is alike in its being "eternal." Their doom is such as to make non-existence desirable, but never to be attained. " - Govett
"Go away from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... and these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:41,46)
We may infer that because Jesus singled out Judas, his torment will be greater. We must assume in both cases the punishment is without cessation. And I would not encourage anyone to be so curious to wait and see how much more or less eternal punishment hurts by degrees. The whole matter is a horror to be avoided through Jesus Christ's salvation.
But would Jesus speak of such horror ? Jesus speaks what was given to Him of the Father TO speak. The Father sent Him to speak, told Him what to speak, commanded the speaking and spoke through Him, which things the Son also knows.
1.) John 3:11 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak that which we know and testify of that which we have seen ..."
2.) John the Baptist on the Son of God - "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for He gives the Spirit not by measure." (v.34)
3.) John 8:28 - " ... I do nothing from Myself, but as the Father has taught Me, I speak these things."
4.) John 12:49,50 - "For I have not spoken from Myself; but the Father who sent Me, He Himself has given Me commandment, what to say and what to speak.
And I know that His commandment is eternal life. The things therefore that I speak, even as the Father has said to Me, so I speak."
We have to settle it in our minds that the both the words of grace and mercy and the horrific words of eternal punishment came from the Son of God. And He spoke what the Father commanded Him to speak.
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We'll look again at this objection.
I believe God is too kind to let eternal torment happen. It just does not fit the picture I read of a loving Father, Merciful God. Yes, he is just and sin has consequences, but not eternal torment. This is something a demented person would do. It borders on hate, anger and vengeance.
I know God has his day of wrath and vengeance, but not to this end.
The mightiest exclamation of praise to God in the Bible is the word "Hallelujah," "Praise ye, Jah!". This strong word most strongly indicates the worshipper's heart has come into full fellowship with the heart of God.
Where in the word of God do we first find this praise [b]"Hallelujah" uttered? It is first used in Psalm 104:35 in connection when the expected Divine Judgment eliminates sinners from the planet:
"May sinners be consumed from off the earth, And may the wicked be no more. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Hallelujah."
The first occurrence of this high praise in the Old Testament and in the whole Bible is uttered because God puts down sinners, terminating their influence on the earth.
The first occurrence of Hallelujah in the New Testament is in precisely the same connection, the judgment of the great metaphorical Harlot which corrupts the earth with her sins (Rev. 19:1-3).
"After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand.
And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever. "
Hallelujah first in both the Old Testament and in the New Testament is uttered when the salvific God judges the sinners, avenges the murderers of the saints, and rids the world of those who corrupt it with their sins.
If every Christian looks forward to being conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) our attitudes will also be conformed to see all things through God's eyes and as Christ sees them.
Now is the time for us to petition the loving and merciful Father for the salvation of sinners. Our hearts should anguish in prayer that men come to believe the Gospel. We should weep and pray for them. But I expect we will joy to see utter victory of God as God deems what that victory is.
But the heart come into full correspondence with the heart of God cannot but utter Hallelujahs at the eternal judgment of God Who has defeated the irreconcilable rebel and cleared the whole earth of corruption. And this praise must also include their eternal judgment if they will not repent -
"Hallelujah ... true and righteous are His judgments ... Hallelujah! ... And her smokes goes up forever and ever."
These are the first Hallelujahs in the New Testament. God overcomes and avenges His enemies and reigns on the planet -
Verse 6 - "Hallelujah! For the Lord God the Almighty reigns."