1. Standard memberRedmike
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    17 May '05 12:10
    A question for the believers - just out of curiosity.

    Assuming there is a hell, and that I, as an unbeliever, am destined to go there. I'm interested in whether there are degrees of hellishness.

    So, do some people get of relatively lightly in hell and are others treated more severely? Are there special punishments reserved for those who've been especially bad? If you're a border-line case, who just didn't quite make it to heaven (maybe you just didn't believe quite enough, or maybe you pulled your little sisters pigtails one time too many) , do they treat you a bit better?

    Or is everyone in hell treated just the same?
  2. Shetland Primary
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    17 May '05 12:22
    Originally posted by Redmike
    A question for the believers - just out of curiosity.

    Assuming there is a hell, and that I, as an unbeliever, am destined to go there. I'm interested in whether there are degrees of hellishness.

    So, do some people get of relatively lightly in hell and are others treated more severely? Are there special punishments reserved for those who've been espec ...[text shortened]... ime too many) , do they treat you a bit better?

    Or is everyone in hell treated just the same?
    I am not too sure about all the details. Actually I wouldn't like to know. I suppose the only way anyone will find out for sure is the moment they die and go there. I don't actually want to take that risk.

    But here is a site that may give you as acurate a picture of Hell as we might know of before death:

    http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
  3. London
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    17 May '05 12:41
    Originally posted by Redmike
    A question for the believers - just out of curiosity.

    Assuming there is a hell, and that I, as an unbeliever, am destined to go there. I'm interested in whether there are degrees of hellishness.

    So, do some people get of relatively lightly in hell and are others treated more severely? Are there special punishments reserved for those who've been espec ...[text shortened]... ime too many) , do they treat you a bit better?

    Or is everyone in hell treated just the same?
    1. I do not believe unbelievers are automatically destined for Hell.
    2. A baptised person ends up in hell iff he dies in a state of mortal sin - i.e. a voluntary and grave sin.

    To answer your question - no, I don't believe there are degrees of suffering in hell. IMF, Hell is not a blow-by-blow punishment for the various crimes you've committed in your life; it's a reflection of the state of your soul at the time of death. Either you are in communion with God or you are not. If the latter, then hell is your fate. In the case of the former, you can be in a state of imperfect communion; in which case your soul may need a process of "purification" before it can enter into heaven - this is what purgatory is.

    And no - pulling your sister's pigtails is not a mortal sin unless it was done with grave intent (say, to scalp her and/or kill her).
  4. Standard memberRedmike
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    17 May '05 12:53
    OK. That kind of ties in with my recollection of how it was supposed to work.

    I guess my secondary question is as follows....

    Given the undeniably poor state of my soul at the moment, and given my lack of any desire to rectify this situation, I'm therefore certain to go to hell, if it exists.

    Why, then should I bother to observe any of the 'rules'? If I'm going to be toast whatever happens, why shouldn't I enjoy myself meantime?
  5. London
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    17 May '05 13:00
    Originally posted by Redmike
    OK. That kind of ties in with my recollection of how it was supposed to work.

    I guess my secondary question is as follows....

    Given the undeniably poor state of my soul at the moment, and given my lack of any desire to rectify this situation, I'm therefore certain to go to hell, if it exists.

    Why, then should I bother to observe any of the 'rules'? If I'm going to be toast whatever happens, why shouldn't I enjoy myself meantime?
    1. What you ought to do (i.e. the right thing to do) is independent of your desire to do it.
    2. No one is certain of going to hell until the moment of their death. So you're not "toast" in all scenarios.

    That is why you should bother to observe the "rules" and not enjoy yourself instead.
  6. Shetland Primary
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    17 May '05 13:02
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    1. I do not believe unbelievers are automatically destined for Hell.
    2. A baptised person ends up in hell iff he dies in a state of mortal sin - i.e. a voluntary and grave sin.

    To answer your question - no, I don't believe there are degrees of suffering in hell. IMF, Hell is not a blow-by-blow punishment for the various crimes you've committed i ...[text shortened]... ls is not a mortal sin unless it was done with grave intent (say, to scalp her and/or kill her).
    I was just interested if you have any Biblical reference towards purgatory?
  7. Shetland Primary
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    17 May '05 13:07
    Originally posted by Redmike
    OK. That kind of ties in with my recollection of how it was supposed to work.

    I guess my secondary question is as follows....

    Given the undeniably poor state of my soul at the moment, and given my lack of any desire to rectify this situation, I'm therefore certain to go to hell, if it exists.

    Why, then should I bother to observe any of the 'rules'? If I'm going to be toast whatever happens, why shouldn't I enjoy myself meantime?
    Why, then should I bother to observe any of the 'rules'? If I'm going to be toast whatever happens, why shouldn't I enjoy myself meantime?

    What makes you think that you are going to toast whatever happens?

    What makes you think that you can't enjoy yourself and still stay out of hell? In other words, what makes you think that sin is the only thing there is to enjoy?
  8. Joined
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    17 May '05 13:08
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I was just interested if you have any Biblical reference towards purgatory?
    Make that two people who are interested...
  9. Standard memberRedmike
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    17 May '05 13:14
    I'm working from the assumption that, as an atheist, I'm not even in the queue for heaven. I understood that a non-believer who otherwise lead a decent life was doomed to be toast. Is this not the case?

    If it is the case, why then do I have to bother with any other consideration than enjoying myself (sinning or otherwise). Why shouldn't I, for example, covet my neighbour's wife? Why should I keep the sabbath?

    I guess what I'm saying is that if the whole reason for not sinning is the avoidance of hell, but that I'm going there anyway, then why bother?
  10. London
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    17 May '05 13:27
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I was just interested if you have any Biblical reference towards purgatory?
    Matt 12:32
    1 Cor 3:15
    2 Macc 12:43-45

    http://www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
  11. Shetland Primary
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    17 May '05 13:32
    Originally posted by Redmike
    I'm working from the assumption that, as an atheist, I'm not even in the queue for heaven. I understood that a non-believer who otherwise lead a decent life was doomed to be toast. Is this not the case?

    If it is the case, why then do I have to bother with any other consideration than enjoying myself (sinning or otherwise). Why shouldn't I, for example, ...[text shortened]... n for not sinning is the avoidance of hell, but that I'm going there anyway, then why bother?
    As I see it the more you sin wilfully, the harder you are making your heart, and thus the more difficult you are making it for yourself to be saved. I know of many atheists that have converted before they died. I believe that while you are alive you still have a chance to be saved.

    God says in His word that He is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should be saved.

    It you willfully continue to sin you are going against God's will and you are making it more difficult for yourself to be saved. You are thus actually choosing to perish.
  12. London
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    17 May '05 13:333 edits
    Originally posted by Redmike
    I'm working from the assumption that, as an atheist, I'm not even in the queue for heaven. I understood that a non-believer who otherwise lead a decent life was doomed to be toast. Is this not the case?

    If it is the case, why then do I ...[text shortened]... ance of hell, but that I'm going there anyway, then why bother?
    Even atheists are not automatically doomed for hell:

    1. I don't know how you became an atheist, what your basis is for holding on to your belief (or absence of belief), how hard you have tried to discover the truth etc. - all these conditions will have to be factored in to find out whether you have committed a mortal sin. Ultimately, only you (besides God) know the answer to that.

    2. Even if you are in a state of mortal sin at the moment, you do not know what experiences you might have between now and the moment of your death that might make you change your position.

    If you think you're headed for hell and don't care, then there is no reason any of us can give for you to maintain a moral life. Is that what you wanted to hear?

    EDIT: I could say that, if you don't follow the laws of the land at least, you will end up in prison.
  13. Standard memberRedmike
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    17 May '05 14:03
    Interesting that there are 2 christian points of view here.

    On the one hand, I'm choosing to persish by sinning. Surely, in this instance, I'm going to perish anyway. So, if I'm a non-believer who obeys all god's laws anyway, I'm still toast. Hardly a choice, I'd say.

    On the other hand, an atheist might still be saved. Or I could repent later in life. But, regarding repenting later, surely the same arguement applies - it doesn't matter what I do now, because if I have a geniune conversion in 10 years, I still might do what I like now. And if I don't, then I'm toast anyway.
    But doesn't god know whether I'm going to be see the light later in life anyway?

    I deliberately used examples of sins which weren't illegal. So we're only talking spiritual consequences (unless my neighbour or my partner become aware of my covetousness...).
  14. London
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    17 May '05 14:222 edits
    Originally posted by Redmike
    Interesting that there are 2 christian points of view here.

    On the one hand, I'm choosing to persish by sinning. Surely, in this instance, I'm going to perish anyway. So, if I'm a non-believer who obeys all god's laws anyway, I'm st ...[text shortened]... ss my neighbour or my partner become aware of my covetousness...).
    Why would you be surprised that there are two Christian views on salvation here?

    What dj2 is arguing appears to be the Fundamentalist (a specific school of thought in Christianity; not to be confused with fundamentalist as in extremist) view of salvation; what I'm arguing is the Catholic view of salvation.

    Your first question is best answered by dj2.

    To your second question, here's an analogy: You don't know that you won't win the National Lottery next month, so why not blow up all your savings today? Especially if you do not care whether you end up broke next month or not.

    EDIT: In a way, your question begs itself because it boils down to "If I do not care about the consequences of action X, why should I not do X?"

    EDIT 2: Technically, dj2's view is the sola fide (or justification by faith) view, while mine is the justification by grace view.
  15. Standard memberWheely
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    17 May '05 14:25
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I am not too sure about all the details. Actually I wouldn't like to know. I suppose the only way anyone will find out for sure is the moment they die and go there. I don't actually want to take that risk.

    But here is a site that may give you as acurate a picture of Hell as we might know of before death:

    http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
    I read most of that page. Quite remarkable. I liked the bit about the worms. Almost enough on it's own to allow me to dismiss the entire article.
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