1. Joined
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    07 Aug '08 20:05
    I have a friend. He is a fundamental christian. He believes in god and miracles and faith and all that, I believe in science.

    We discuss religion and science all the time. He doesn't think science can explain everything so he stick to creationism as a solution for everything. I don't think either that science can explain everything, certainly not miracles or other things related to religion but I believe that science brings order in the universe. If there is a creator of it all, then he would be a fool if he didn't create the laws of nature to be consistent and reliable. He says, that god can do whatever he wants, and he cares about his believers.

    Once we were up flying in a sport plane. After a while we had motor troubles. We had to jump. The problem was that we only had one parachute.

    I said, with the parachute I can take a jump and save me with it. I believe in science, I don't think I will fall like a rock. If science work I will be saved. I have absolute faith in science. And the science about how a parachute falls, with aerodynamics, with the atomic theory that guarantees that the fabric will hold, with Newton's mechanics that ensure me not to fall too hard on the ground, the laws of gravity, electromagnetic forces, and every other natural law in science applicable.

    You on the other hand have the faith in god, that god will save his own believers. You don't need a parachute, because you don't believe in science anyway.

    So I took the parachute, jumped, and landed safely on the ground.

    I haven't seen my friend since. Perhaps he is enjoying heaven right now, who knows. Or perhaps he's not.

    Now, this is of course a hypothetical story, and a hypothetical experiment. I dare anyone to do the experiment with me.

    I rely on science; my faith in science is good enough for me to challenge it. Will anyone christian fundamentalist dare to jump without a parachute, having faith enough to dare to jump with me but without parachute? Who of us will land first, and who of us will survive?
  2. Joined
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    07 Aug '08 20:11
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I have a friend. He is a fundamental christian. He believes in god and miracles and faith and all that, I believe in science.

    We discuss religion and science all the time. He doesn't think science can explain everything so he stick to creationism as a solution for everything. I don't think either that science can explain everything, certainly not mira ...[text shortened]... p with me but without parachute? Who of us will land first, and who of us will survive?
    what if the parachute fails to work? What science can do in this case?

    -------------

    Any way, I'm not christian 🙂
  3. Joined
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    07 Aug '08 20:221 edit
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    what if the parachute fails to work? What science can do in this case?
    I believe that parachute doesn't fail. I'm betting with my life that it will work.

    My belief in science is stronger that the belief of my friend have for his religion.

    Science vs Religion 1-0
  4. Joined
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    07 Aug '08 20:331 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I believe that parachute doesn't fail. I'm betting with my life that it will work.

    My belief in science is stronger that the belief of my friend have for his religion.

    Science vs Religion 1-0
    Science vs Religion 1-0

    First: In your initial post you were talking about Christians, so you can't start counting now. I'm not Christian.

    Second: you didn't show a different level of faith than your Christian friend, both of you are believing in something that may turn you down. You just have some lower probability of being turned down.
  5. Standard memberScriabin
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    07 Aug '08 20:491 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I have a friend. He is a fundamental christian. He believes in god and miracles and faith and all that, I believe in science.

    We discuss religion and science all the time. He doesn't think science can explain everything so he stick to creationism as a solution for everything. I don't think either that science can explain everything, certainly not mira p with me but without parachute? Who of us will land first, and who of us will survive?
    False dilemma.

    Wrong question posed due to misuse of word "science."

    Science is not a belief system. One does not "believe" in science, as its existence is not really in doubt. One cannot say the same about that which various and multitudinous religions now and throughout human history have believed exists or existed.

    The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge.

    How do we define science? According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the definition of science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

    What does that really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it.

    What is the purpose of science? Perhaps the most general description is that the purpose of science is to produce useful models of reality. We say "model" because as we gain knowledge from experience our concept of reality changes over time. We are always aware our apprehension of reality is incomplete, at best. But rather than take an intellectual and emotional short cut and leave it to faith and belief, those who seek a rational basis for apprehending that which is the case accept the process of scientific investigation to get at as much of what is the case as we can establish given all sorts of technological, sociological, political, and economic limitations.

    Most scientific investigations use some form of the scientific method.

    Science as defined above is sometimes called pure science to differentiate it from applied science, which is the application of research to human needs. Fields of science are commonly classified along two major lines:
    - Natural sciences, the study of the natural world, and
    - Social sciences, the systematic study of human behavior and society.

    So, applying what my government agency scientists have learned about the statistical correlation of the exposure in measurable doses of certain chemicals to various forms of harm to the health of persons or the environment, we set standards limiting the amount of these chemicals folks are allowed to spew into the air or water or bury in the land. We limit the ways these chemicals may expose people to the risk of harm --not because we are certain we know what that risk is in absolute terms, but because we have a duty to exercise due care and err on the side of safety.

    Thus, none of this could take place in a system based merely on beliefs and be at all rational.

    You no doubt would question whether it was true if I told you that I believe breathing the scent of roses is certain to cause Alzheimer's disease in later life.

    It is therefore all the more curious that many do not question the words written on the pages of a book more than 2000 years old as the direct word of a personal deity of whose existence and authorship they have not one shred of statistical or physical evidence.

    Yet that is human nature -- we either accept reality for what it is and adapt, or we yield part of our free will and accept beliefs others give us because it makes us feel better than otherwise.
  6. Joined
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    07 Aug '08 20:52
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    [b]Science vs Religion 1-0

    First: In your initial post you were talking about Christians, so you can't start counting now. I'm not Christian.

    Second: you didn't show a different level of faith than your Christian friend, both of you are believing in something that may turn you down. You just have some lower probability of being turned down.[/b]
    No, it isn't between you and me, I get that. Sorry for being unclear on that. I'm eagerly waitng for any christian fundamentalist claiming that I'm wrong and he's right, yet not having enough faith of wanting to jump without a chute.

    I think that a christian fundamentalist has stronger religious faith than I have faith in science. He has the strongest force in universe to back him up, due to his beliefs, i.e. his own creator. From his view, I only has science to rely on. He should be confident of his survival, so where are the christians wanting to jump without the hute?

    Yes, you're right. I have the higher probability to land safely on the ground. Doesn't this say something about religion?
  7. Standard memberScriabin
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    07 Aug '08 21:32
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    No, it isn't between you and me, I get that. Sorry for being unclear on that. I'm eagerly waitng for any christian fundamentalist claiming that I'm wrong and he's right, yet not having enough faith of wanting to jump without a chute.

    I think that a christian fundamentalist has stronger religious faith than I have faith in science. He has the strongest ...[text shortened]... igher probability to land safely on the ground. Doesn't this say something about religion?
    Illogical.
    Reasoning from false premise: jumping from plane, a Christian would always believe God would save him from death.

    Demonstrably false, as those Christians throughout history (and Jews and members of other religions) have willingly submitted themselves to situations they well knew presented not only the possibility but the certainty of their death. Nonetheless, because of their respective faith, or because they refused to give up that faith or deny it, chose to die in the belief that their reward would come after.

    So the test you've cooked up doesn't say anything about religion vs. science at all.

    A better test is to find a premise given by the Christian Bible that asserts as a fact something that can be shown through the scientific method to be not a fact at all.

    This is a difficult thing to do because the circular logic of which all religion is comprised explains any departure from natural laws as something God can do on a whim or at will.

    There need not be a conflict at all, of course.

    Einstein supported the compatibility of religion and science. In an article originally appearing in the New York Times Magazine in 1930, he wrote:

    "Accordingly, a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance and loftiness of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation. They exist with the same necessity and matter-of-factness as he himself. In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible. For science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. Religion, on the other hand, deals only with evaluations of human thought and action: it cannot justifiably speak of facts and relationships between facts. According to this interpretation the well-known conflicts between religion and science in the past must all be ascribed to a misapprehension of the situation which has been described."

    see http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm
  8. Joined
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    07 Aug '08 22:592 edits
    I'm a Christian, and I believe that if I jump out of an airplane without a parachute that there is a 99.99999999% chance (give or take) that I will die.

    Every Christian physically dies at some point, whether by old-age or falling out of an airplane, or whatever.

    I'm don't see the point of the posited hypothetical scenario. (I'm not saying there isn't a poiint, I'm just saying that I don't know what it is.) Aside from a so-called "rapture" occuring in their lifetime, does anyone viewing this post know of any fundamentalist Christians who don't think that they are going to physically die at some point?
  9. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    07 Aug '08 23:21
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I have a friend. He is a fundamental christian. He believes in god and miracles and faith and all that, I believe in science.

    We discuss religion and science all the time. He doesn't think science can explain everything so he stick to creationism as a solution for everything. I don't think either that science can explain everything, certainly not mira ...[text shortened]... p with me but without parachute? Who of us will land first, and who of us will survive?
    I don't think a Christian would deny the validity of basic physics in this case. Perhaps the scenario is more interesting if instead you ask, "Since you believe that you will go to heaven when you die, and I am unsaved, would you mind going down with the plane and let me parachute to safety?"
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    07 Aug '08 23:52
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    I don't think a Christian would deny the validity of basic physics in this case. Perhaps the scenario is more interesting if instead you ask, "Since you believe that you will go to heaven when you die, and I am unsaved, would you mind going down with the plane and let me parachute to safety?"
    Good one. Or try this one.

    Here is a verse in the NT about what to do when you are sick:

    James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
    15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    So the procedure according to James is to:
    - call the elders
    - let them pray
    - let them annoint the sick with oil.

    I'll bet the first thing Christians do is to run to the doctor or call 911.
  11. Subscribersonhouse
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    08 Aug '08 01:02
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Good one. Or try this one.

    Here is a verse in the NT about what to do when you are sick:

    James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
    15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins ...[text shortened]... e sick with oil.

    I'll bet the first thing Christians do is to run to the doctor or call 911.
    Ah, science in action then....
  12. Joined
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    08 Aug '08 04:162 edits
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I have a friend. He is a fundamental christian. He believes in god and miracles and faith and all that, I believe in science.

    We discuss religion and science all the time. He doesn't think science can explain everything so he stick to creationism as a solution for everything. I don't think either that science can explain everything, certainly not mira p with me but without parachute? Who of us will land first, and who of us will survive?
    Your little example reminds me of snake handling churches. They say that God will spare them from being bitten if only they have enough faith, however, inevitably hundreds die a year anyway.

    I think Christ would respond much in the same manner as he responded to the devil when the devil dared him to throw himself over a cliff. The devil said that it is written that the angels will not allow him to dash his foot against a stone if he fell. Christ retorted, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."


    Tempt him all you want, only, don't be suprised when things don't go your way.
  13. weedhopper
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    08 Aug '08 16:10
    Jesus saves is not the same as "jesus saves your mortal self every time you're in a pickle" That would be determinism.
  14. Standard memberpawnfondler
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    08 Aug '08 17:30
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I believe that parachute doesn't fail. I'm betting with my life that it will work.

    My belief in science is stronger that the belief of my friend have for his religion.

    Science vs Religion 1-0
    YouTube

    1-1
  15. At the Revolution
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    08 Aug '08 21:34
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Good one. Or try this one.

    Here is a verse in the NT about what to do when you are sick:

    James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
    15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins ...[text shortened]... e sick with oil.

    I'll bet the first thing Christians do is to run to the doctor or call 911.
    That's not what you'd do. You'd check to make sure the sick guy wasn't Muslim, and if he was, you'd kick his groin and leave him there to die.
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