1. Standard memberSMSBear716
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    26 Aug '07 01:35
    Here's a question and the subject may have been broached before.

    Why do we hear about more than a few people who claimed that they are athiest all their lives, on their deathbeds or when they are near death, beg God for mercy and forgiveness?

    Case in point, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Were they frauds all their life, claiming to not believe in God? Or did they have a epiphany?

    One wonders.....

    Thoughts?
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    26 Aug '07 02:033 edits
    Originally posted by SMSBear716
    Here's a question and the subject may have been broached before.

    Why do we hear about more than a few people who claimed that they are athiest all their lives, on their deathbeds or when they are near death, beg God for mercy and forgiveness?

    Case in point, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Were they frauds all their life, claiming to not believe in God? Or did they have a epiphany?

    One wonders.....

    Thoughts?
    I think there are probably a few factors. One is that intelligence causes atheism, and most people aren't that smart which leads to - the majority of people (the religious people) prefer stories like this rather than those describing people who renounce religion. Also significant is that on ones' deathbed fear of Hell and maybe the hope of Heaven can take over and suppress rationality. Hell is the ultimate threat, and it's very, very scary.
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    26 Aug '07 02:05
    Where did you ever hear that Mrs. Murray repented at her death?

    Is this some kind of trap?
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    26 Aug '07 02:08
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Where did you ever hear that Mrs. Murray repented at her death?

    Is this some kind of trap?
    Good question. How can one talk about the deathbed intentions of someone who was kidnapped and murdered? How do you know what she thought about or said on her deathbed? Even if she did claim religion, maybe she was just trying to save her own life?!.
  5. Standard memberSMSBear716
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    26 Aug '07 02:11
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Good question. How can one talk about the deathbed intentions of someone who was kidnapped and murdered? How do you know what she thought about or said on her deathbed? Even if she did claim religion, maybe she was just trying to save her own life?!.
    Before her deathe she renounced her cause celebre
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    26 Aug '07 02:161 edit
    I have seen more than one news documentary on Murray. Never was there any mention of any second thoughts about her atheism.

    Her son who knew her very well, said she probably died looking down the barrel of a gun saying "Don't you know who I am ? I'm Madeline Murray the great atheist."

    Her son was doubtful that she ever repented. I don't know why I should know better than he.
  7. Standard memberSMSBear716
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    26 Aug '07 02:182 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Good question. How can one talk about the deathbed intentions of someone who was kidnapped and murdered? How do you know what she thought about or said on her deathbed? Even if she did claim religion, maybe she was just trying to save her own life?!.
    I stand corrected.... she was a crook..... Her son renounced his Atheism.....

    But anyway, my original question still stands. So intelligent people don't believe in God? Martin Luther King was not an intelligent man? JFK? RWR? I find that an fascinating statement
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    26 Aug '07 02:221 edit
    Now I think you have it right. One of her sons became a believer.

    She liked to have ex-cons employed in her business. The best evidence is that one of those ex- cons kidnapped her for money and revenge and killed her and chopped up her body.

    The comedians made a joke of it. One said "Madeline Murray has been reported as having disappeared. Her family has requested that everyone not pray."
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    26 Aug '07 02:411 edit
    Originally posted by SMSBear716
    I stand corrected.... she was a crook..... Her son renounced his Atheism.....

    But anyway, my original question still stands. So intelligent people don't believe in God? Martin Luther King was not an intelligent man? JFK? RWR? I find that an fascinating statement
    http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/intelligence.html#IQ

    Specific examples are not evidence against a trend if they are cherry picked to support one position. I did not say there were no intelligence theists. However, your mistake about this woman becoming religious as well as your mistake about her name does support my point.
  10. Standard memberSMSBear716
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    26 Aug '07 02:52
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/intelligence.html#IQ

    Specific examples are not evidence against a trend if they are cherry picked to support one position. I did not say there were no intelligence theists. However, your mistake about this woman becoming religious as well as your mistake about her name does support my point.
    How many more inteillent people who believe in God should I name to satisfy you? Would any number be sufficient? How about daVinci.. that a good one

    As for my mistake .... I admitted it Would you do the same?
  11. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    26 Aug '07 03:02
    Originally posted by SMSBear716
    How many more inteillent people who believe in God should I name to satisfy you? Would any number be sufficient? How about daVinci.. that a good one

    As for my mistake .... I admitted it Would you do the same?
    When I make mistakes, I admit it. I am not aware I've made one in this thread however.

    You'd need to pick a group of people representative of whatever population you're referring to and do a proper study on their beliefs, as was done with the study I just linked to.
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    26 Aug '07 03:12
    Originally posted by SMSBear716

    But anyway, my original question still stands. So intelligent people don't believe in God? Martin Luther King was not an intelligent man? JFK? RWR? I find that an fascinating statement[/b]
    It has been my experience in talking to atheists that deep down they believe people of faith to be stupid in some form or fashion. It can be seen in how they interact with people of faith as the truth is exposed little by little by what they say just as it has here. However, confront them directly in admitting this and the begin a song and dance to debunk such a notion, just as it has happened here. I think this is because they know they cannot defend such a position, yet they continue believing it anyway whether they admitt to it or not.
  13. Standard memberSMSBear716
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    26 Aug '07 03:12
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    When I make mistakes, I admit it. I am not aware I've made one in this thread however.

    You'd need to pick a group of people representative of whatever population you're referring to and do a proper study on their beliefs, as was done with the study I just linked to.
    I think I'll just conitnue to stand by my previous posts, maybe I'll throw Mozart into my list of names... now there was a real unintelligent guy.

    I'll give it a rest now and let some people post about my originial question ....
  14. Standard membertelerion
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    26 Aug '07 03:33
    Originally posted by SMSBear716
    Here's a question and the subject may have been broached before.

    Why do we hear about more than a few people who claimed that they are athiest all their lives, on their deathbeds or when they are near death, beg God for mercy and forgiveness?

    Case in point, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Were they frauds all their life, claiming to not believe in God? Or did they have a epiphany?

    One wonders.....

    Thoughts?
    I should have included willful ignorance in my first response to you.

    You've already been told that your claim in a hoax.

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=75701&page=3
  15. Standard membertelerion
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    26 Aug '07 03:48
    Originally posted by whodey
    It has been my experience in talking to atheists that deep down they believe people of faith to be stupid in some form or fashion. It can be seen in how they interact with people of faith as the truth is exposed little by little by what they say just as it has here. However, confront them directly in admitting this and the begin a song and dance to debunk s ...[text shortened]... defend such a position, yet they continue believing it anyway whether they admitt to it or not.
    I have found that on average atheists and skeptics tend to be intelligent and/or well educated people. Of course, it would be fallacious to jump from this to the conclusion that non-atheists are stupid. Quite simply, atheism is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for being intelligent, though empirically the two may be strongly correlated.

    There are believers whom I regard as quite intelligent. Many are friends or colleagues of mine. I do catch myself at moments forgetting that holding on to a stupid belief (in my opinion, of course) does not necessarily make the believer a stupid person. I suppose Christians here might understand if they've ever had a serious conversation with a New Ager. Some of what those guys spout seems downright moronic, but it wouldn't be correct to say that all New Agers are morons.

    That said, stupid people are more susceptible to believing stupid things and so it shouldn't surprise us to find a greater fraction of nitwit believers than nitwit atheists. In the end, I try to remind myself that I too was an "on fire," "sold out" Evangelical Christian for quite some time, and during that period (and still today) I was a demonstrably intelligent person*.

    * - It is always dangerous to profess in writing that one is intelligent. I will own up to grammar and spelling mistakes with the same humility that I have shown in this post. 🙂
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