Spirituality
26 Aug 07
26 Aug 07
Here's a question and the subject may have been broached before.
Why do we hear about more than a few people who claimed that they are athiest all their lives, on their deathbeds or when they are near death, beg God for mercy and forgiveness?
Case in point, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Were they frauds all their life, claiming to not believe in God? Or did they have a epiphany?
One wonders.....
Thoughts?
26 Aug 07
3 edits
Originally posted by SMSBear716I think there are probably a few factors. One is that intelligence causes atheism, and most people aren't that smart which leads to - the majority of people (the religious people) prefer stories like this rather than those describing people who renounce religion. Also significant is that on ones' deathbed fear of Hell and maybe the hope of Heaven can take over and suppress rationality. Hell is the ultimate threat, and it's very, very scary.
Here's a question and the subject may have been broached before.
Why do we hear about more than a few people who claimed that they are athiest all their lives, on their deathbeds or when they are near death, beg God for mercy and forgiveness?
Case in point, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Were they frauds all their life, claiming to not believe in God? Or did they have a epiphany?
One wonders.....
Thoughts?
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by jaywillGood question. How can one talk about the deathbed intentions of someone who was kidnapped and murdered? How do you know what she thought about or said on her deathbed? Even if she did claim religion, maybe she was just trying to save her own life?!.
Where did you ever hear that Mrs. Murray repented at her death?
Is this some kind of trap?
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungBefore her deathe she renounced her cause celebre
Good question. How can one talk about the deathbed intentions of someone who was kidnapped and murdered? How do you know what she thought about or said on her deathbed? Even if she did claim religion, maybe she was just trying to save her own life?!.
26 Aug 07
1 edit
I have seen more than one news documentary on Murray. Never was there any mention of any second thoughts about her atheism.
Her son who knew her very well, said she probably died looking down the barrel of a gun saying "Don't you know who I am ? I'm Madeline Murray the great atheist."
Her son was doubtful that she ever repented. I don't know why I should know better than he.
26 Aug 07
2 edits
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI stand corrected.... she was a crook..... Her son renounced his Atheism.....
Good question. How can one talk about the deathbed intentions of someone who was kidnapped and murdered? How do you know what she thought about or said on her deathbed? Even if she did claim religion, maybe she was just trying to save her own life?!.
But anyway, my original question still stands. So intelligent people don't believe in God? Martin Luther King was not an intelligent man? JFK? RWR? I find that an fascinating statement
26 Aug 07
1 edit
Now I think you have it right. One of her sons became a believer.
She liked to have ex-cons employed in her business. The best evidence is that one of those ex- cons kidnapped her for money and revenge and killed her and chopped up her body.
The comedians made a joke of it. One said "Madeline Murray has been reported as having disappeared. Her family has requested that everyone not pray."
26 Aug 07
1 edit
Originally posted by SMSBear716http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/intelligence.html#IQ
I stand corrected.... she was a crook..... Her son renounced his Atheism.....
But anyway, my original question still stands. So intelligent people don't believe in God? Martin Luther King was not an intelligent man? JFK? RWR? I find that an fascinating statement
Specific examples are not evidence against a trend if they are cherry picked to support one position. I did not say there were no intelligence theists. However, your mistake about this woman becoming religious as well as your mistake about her name does support my point.
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungHow many more inteillent people who believe in God should I name to satisfy you? Would any number be sufficient? How about daVinci.. that a good one
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/intelligence.html#IQ
Specific examples are not evidence against a trend if they are cherry picked to support one position. I did not say there were no intelligence theists. However, your mistake about this woman becoming religious as well as your mistake about her name does support my point.
As for my mistake .... I admitted it Would you do the same?
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by SMSBear716When I make mistakes, I admit it. I am not aware I've made one in this thread however.
How many more inteillent people who believe in God should I name to satisfy you? Would any number be sufficient? How about daVinci.. that a good one
As for my mistake .... I admitted it Would you do the same?
You'd need to pick a group of people representative of whatever population you're referring to and do a proper study on their beliefs, as was done with the study I just linked to.
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by SMSBear716It has been my experience in talking to atheists that deep down they believe people of faith to be stupid in some form or fashion. It can be seen in how they interact with people of faith as the truth is exposed little by little by what they say just as it has here. However, confront them directly in admitting this and the begin a song and dance to debunk such a notion, just as it has happened here. I think this is because they know they cannot defend such a position, yet they continue believing it anyway whether they admitt to it or not.
But anyway, my original question still stands. So intelligent people don't believe in God? Martin Luther King was not an intelligent man? JFK? RWR? I find that an fascinating statement[/b]
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI think I'll just conitnue to stand by my previous posts, maybe I'll throw Mozart into my list of names... now there was a real unintelligent guy.
When I make mistakes, I admit it. I am not aware I've made one in this thread however.
You'd need to pick a group of people representative of whatever population you're referring to and do a proper study on their beliefs, as was done with the study I just linked to.
I'll give it a rest now and let some people post about my originial question ....
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by SMSBear716I should have included willful ignorance in my first response to you.
Here's a question and the subject may have been broached before.
Why do we hear about more than a few people who claimed that they are athiest all their lives, on their deathbeds or when they are near death, beg God for mercy and forgiveness?
Case in point, Madeline Murray O'Hare. Were they frauds all their life, claiming to not believe in God? Or did they have a epiphany?
One wonders.....
Thoughts?
You've already been told that your claim in a hoax.
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=75701&page=3
26 Aug 07
Originally posted by whodeyI have found that on average atheists and skeptics tend to be intelligent and/or well educated people. Of course, it would be fallacious to jump from this to the conclusion that non-atheists are stupid. Quite simply, atheism is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for being intelligent, though empirically the two may be strongly correlated.
It has been my experience in talking to atheists that deep down they believe people of faith to be stupid in some form or fashion. It can be seen in how they interact with people of faith as the truth is exposed little by little by what they say just as it has here. However, confront them directly in admitting this and the begin a song and dance to debunk s ...[text shortened]... defend such a position, yet they continue believing it anyway whether they admitt to it or not.
There are believers whom I regard as quite intelligent. Many are friends or colleagues of mine. I do catch myself at moments forgetting that holding on to a stupid belief (in my opinion, of course) does not necessarily make the believer a stupid person. I suppose Christians here might understand if they've ever had a serious conversation with a New Ager. Some of what those guys spout seems downright moronic, but it wouldn't be correct to say that all New Agers are morons.
That said, stupid people are more susceptible to believing stupid things and so it shouldn't surprise us to find a greater fraction of nitwit believers than nitwit atheists. In the end, I try to remind myself that I too was an "on fire," "sold out" Evangelical Christian for quite some time, and during that period (and still today) I was a demonstrably intelligent person*.
* - It is always dangerous to profess in writing that one is intelligent. I will own up to grammar and spelling mistakes with the same humility that I have shown in this post. 🙂