Originally posted by NemesioNemesio,
AH HA! You are proving my point. The understanding of the consummation of an age is
a complicated one, entailing the reading of two (long) chapters of Scripture. Can you
now understand why selecting just single, highly charged verses from Scripture might then
pose a problem of context?
Nemesio
If I could focus your comments, I think you are saying "consummation of the age" is ambiguous. I think you are saying the "kingdom of God," and ""second coming" are contraversial and complicated so the "context" of Matthew 28:20 is ambiguous and problematic.
This is not as big as a problem as you seem to think it is.
1.) The point the sentence is that Jesus remains with His disciples "always" regardless of when "the consummation of the age " is. His point is mainly that He will be with them from now on.
"And behold. I am with you all the days ...." Just taking that much will render the effect of the Lord's teaching. He will "always" be with His followers.
On the side I think Matthew's record of this sentence is meant to reiterate what was said about Jesus when He was born - "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel (which is translated, God with us)" (Matt. 1:23)
At His birth He was called "God with us". I think that at the end of His earthly ministry He says "I am with you all the days". This meaning that He will always be "Emmanuel ... God with us".
But back to Matthew 28:20 now.
2.) The end of the age is the time if His parousia. Now the details of His parousia may in fact be complicated. But it has no effect on this promise.
Emmanuel, God with us in Christ, will be with His believers until then. And certainly afterwards in a fuller and physical way He will with them. So where is the problem of context or interpretation? If you are the Lord Jesus' follower He will be with you all the days until the close of the age, whenever and however that may occur, and forever afterwards. So the only problem is for us to be sure we are His followers.
Earlier in the gospel He promised that wherever two or three were gathered into His name there He would be in their midst (Matthew 18:20) That is certainly consistent with Him being with His people all the days.
Among the four gospels the ascension of Christ is recorded only in Mark (Mark 16:19) and Luke (Luke 24:51). John testifies that the Lord Jesus as the Son of God, even God Himself, is life to His believers. Since He is thier indwelling divine life, of course He is with them all the days. He lives in them all the days. He tells them in John that He will not leave His disciples as orphans (John 14:18)
And again in Matthew, He is Emmanuel, the heavenly King who is with His people continuously until He comes back physically. So John and Matthew give no sense at all that Jesus Christ ever really went away. Though John does record Jesus saying that He will go away, it is clear that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of reality, is just the Lord Jesus in another form. He is with them always as the Comforter, the Spirit of reality. His "pneumatic" or spiritual presence will come to the disciples and never leave them orphans. He will be with them forever.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever.
Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know HIm, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you" (John 14:16-18)
The "Another Comforter" will be with the disciples "forever". Hence He will be with them "all the days".
The "Another Comforter" cannot be received by the world because they depend upon physical senses to see such a one. But the disciples have the spiritual sense to receive Him.
This "Spirit of reality" is with the disciples at the time Jesus spoke this. But in the future He will be within the disciples - in them:
"Even the Spirit of reality ... but you know Him because He abides with you and shall be in you"
Jesus of Nazareth was abiding with them. But soon after His death and resurrection, Jesus would be abiding IN them. The Lord with them was going to become the Lord within them. Though the world cannot receive Him His believers can receive Him.
Then the "He" in verse 17 suddenly changes to the "I" in verse 18.
"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you"
The "He" of the Spirit of reality becomes the "I" who will not leave the disciples as orphans but is coming to them. This means that Christ came to them in His form as the Holy Spirit to be thier life and to abide with them.
So John and Matthew are in total agreement. God with us in Jesus Christ is with us (His believers) all the days. Even unto the end of the age He remains to be with us.
So we need to be His believers for Him to be with us and to abide in us. Any uncertainties about the second coming do not effect this indwelling presence of the Spirit of reality, the Christ who became a life giving Spirit:
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Nemesio,
============================
Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. Truly I say to you, there are
some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God. (9:26-27)
=============================
You didn't notice that the immediately following passages verses 28 - 36 discribe the transfiguration of Christ. The glory of Christ's divinity was concealed within the shell of His humanity. For a brief moment God allowed this concealed spleandour to radiate out from its concealment.
This shinning out of the inward life and glory of God from within Jesus and from within His disciples is an important aspect of the kingdom of God. So this vision was a preview of the nature of the kingdom of God.
Its recording immediately following His word that some would not taste death until they saw the kingdom of God is intended to convey that this was a preview of the kingdom.
====================
These pose some very serious problems for the literalist, as (this portrayal of) Jesus is unequivocal in His assertion that the Parousia is coming in the lifetime of the Disciples (and indeed, St Paul
clearly believed this, too). I'm sure that so-called literalists (who interpret these inconvenient passages non-literally) have some other-worldly explanation for these passages (you know, where
a word like 'generation' means something else, or the 'kingdom of God' means something else here
than in Revelation, or 'taste death' means something else, or whatever), but this hardly inspires [/b]
===========================
This is interesting that you would refer to "other wordly explanations".
You are ignoring explanations not "other wordldy" but quite plainly indicated in the Bible.
First of all "the kingdom of God" is a matter of development and growth. In its several stages it is still the kingdom of God. If this is not the case then why would Jesus tell the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was in their midst? Jesus the Son of God was in their midst, so the kingdom of God was in their midst.
Secondly, this parable proves that the kingdom of God is a matter of development and process:
"And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how, he does not know. The earth bears fruit by itself; first the blade, then an ear, then the full grain in the ear.
But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come" (Mark 4:26-29)
Obviously this parable conveys that "the kingdom of God" is a matter of growth and development. It is a process of God sown into man and growing in man.
At the stage of casted seed, it is the kingdom of God. And the stage of the seed sprouting and lengthening, it is likewise the kingdom of God. At the stage of the seed bearing fruit, it is still the kingdom of God. And at the stage of ripeness and harvest is is the kingdom of God as well.
It is your superficial understanding leading you to believe that only the second coming discribed in passages of Revelation is the kingdom of God.
Paul tells the church in Rome that the "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17) Here the Apostle did not say the kingdom of God will not be. He said the kingdom of God is not this now but is rather this now. The normal church life was a stage of the kingdom of God.
Otherworldly? No it is right there in Romans 14. Today, righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit is the kingdom of God.
"For the kingdom of God is not in speech but in power" (1 Cor. 4:20) Here again in the church in Corinth the kingdom of God was present at that time in power. Especially the power to change lives.
Paul also refered to his fellow workers as being "fellow workers for the kingdom of God" during the church age. And many other passages prove that the kingdom of God has a stage of its development before the "presence" or parousia of Christ in His second coming.
Rather than blame iteralists you might seek to correct your own superficial study of the New Testament.
Originally posted by jaywillHuman capability for self delusion never ceases to amaze me. I get the same uplift when I call on the one real God, The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Calling on the name of Jesus is a simple way to touch the reality of Christ. The living Person of Jesus can be experienced by calling "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus." If you believe that He has resin from the dead and is alive, to get to know Him you can call upon His name - Lord Jesus."
There is such power in the name of Jesus. "The last Adam became a li ...[text shortened]... 15:45). We can experience the life giving Spirit of Jesus by calling on His name in faith.
Originally posted by jaywill
You didn't notice that the immediately following passages [b]verses 28 - 36 discribe the transfiguration of Christ. The glory of Christ's divinity was concealed within the shell of His humanity. For a brief moment God allowed this concealed spleandour to radiate out from its concealment.[/b]
Um. I did notice. Do you think that the Transfiguration constitutes the 'Son of Man coming
in the glory of the Father and the holy angels?' I'm not sure you do, because you refer to it
as a preview.
If you do, and given that this event takes place eight days later than His prediction, why would
Jesus say that some would not taste death? Was there really a danger that some would die
in the eight days that transpired? I mean, this interpretation makes it a meaningless sort of
prediction. It would be like my saying: 'THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE READING THIS FORUM WHO
WILL NOT TASTE DEATH UNTIL I POST ANOTHER LONG THEOLOGICAL POST.' Well, so what?
Big deal. Why the drama?
Your explanation that the Kingdom of God is evolving is fine with me, but it doesn't explain
why what Jesus said didn't happen. Remember He said:
There will be signs in the sun, the moon and the stars, and on earth nations will be in
dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation
of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And they will see
the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen,
stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand. He taught them a lesson.
"Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves
and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know
that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until
all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass
away." (St Luke 21:25-33)
The Kingdom of God is near, He said. And before that He mentions all manner of signs -- suns,
water, whatever. Jesus instructs His audience to stand erect when these signs happen, that the
generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
Well, either Jesus was being extraordinarily vague -- by generation, He meant a long time, and
the instructions to His audience meant for totally different people -- or He was wrong.
I'll assume you disagree with the latter, how can you explain the fact that He is apparently misleading
His audience into believing that the Kingdom of God and all its accompanying signs were going to
transpire in His lifetime?
Nemesio
Nemesio,
=================
Um. I did notice. Do you think that the Transfiguration constitutes the 'Son of Man coming
in the glory of the Father and the holy angels?' I'm not sure you do, because you refer to it as a preview.
=====================
Verse 28 does not say that they would not taste death until they see ”the Son of Man … come in the glory of His Father with His angels”
Verse 28 says “Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom”
The transfiguration was a preview of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. If we examine Peter’s reference to this experience it seems that this was his understanding also.
Peter writes:
”For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One’s majesty.
For He received from God the Father honor and glory, a voice such as this being borne to Him by the magnificent glory: This is My Son, My Beloved, in whom I delight.
And this voice we heard being borne out of heaven while we were with Him in the holy mountain” (2 Peter 1:16,17)
Peter regarded this experience as being eyewitness to the ”power and coming” of Christ.
What is more stricking to me is that it must have happened. For if you are correct it is all the more significant that Matthew did not exclude the event. If Jesus did break His promise, which I don’t believe is the proper interpretation, how significant that Matthew would not conceal the embaressment. Rather he faithfully records the words of Christ without partiality.
========================
If you do, and given that this event takes place eight days later than His prediction, why would Jesus say that some would not taste death? Was there really a danger that some would die
in the eight days that transpired? I mean, this interpretation makes it a meaningless sort of prediction.
========================
Christ as God incarnate as a man sometimes was under the limitations of a normal man. He may not have known of the tranfiguration experience to come at the time He made the prediction. Sometimes He was surprised at something someone said. And at another time He marveled at someone else’s faith.
So being a man also He could have prophesied something in the distant future not knowing what personal experience the Father would grant Him eight days hence.
====================
It would be like my saying: 'THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE READING THIS FORUM WHO
WILL NOT TASTE DEATH UNTIL I POST ANOTHER LONG THEOLOGICAL POST.' Well, so what?
Big deal. Why the drama?
====================
Something is slightly humorous about that. I don’t know what or what to reply. But anyway you did succeed in making me chuckle.
================
Your explanation that the Kingdom of God is evolving is fine with me, but it doesn't explain why what Jesus said didn't happen. Remember He said:
There will be signs in the sun, the moon and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation
of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And they will see
the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen,
stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand. He taught them a lesson.
"Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves
and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know
that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until
all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass
away." (St Luke 21:25-33)
========================
I think when Jesus comes most people will think that it is too soon rather than too late.
And we can see the effects of global warming on nature a little now.
I think you should count the delay of Christ as God mercifully granting you and I more time to draw close to Him. I think that that is the appropriate response to Him not having returned yet.
I think you should rather Say “Lord Jesus. Thank you that I am still in the age of grace. Thankyou that I still have time to get to know you.”
As I said before, in the writings of the first apostles toward the end of their lives we see no depression and dejection that Christ has broken His promise. They may have wanted Him to come before they died. They may have expected Him to. But their mood is very triumphant and upbeat in spite of the fact that it has dawned upon them that they are soon to depart this world.
You are making way too much of this “See? Jesus broke His promise” line of skepticism. Have you forgotten what He Himself told the 12 disciples when they asked whether it was at this time He would restore the kingdom?
”It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set by His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:7,8)
=====================
The Kingdom of God is near, He said. And before that He mentions all manner of signs -- suns, water, whatever. Jesus instructs His audience to stand erect when these signs happen, that the generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
====================
I think that the reformation of the nation of Israel in 1948 was definitely a sign of the leaves of the “fig tree” growing tender and sprouting. Since the reformation of Israel students of prophecy have been very attentive.
I think “generation” in Matthew 24:34 does not refer to an age or a person like in 1:17. I think generation here refers to the moral condition of the people, like the generations in 11:16; 12:39, 41-42, 45 and Proverbs 30:11-14.
==============================
I'll assume you disagree with the latter, how can you explain the fact that He is apparently misleading
His audience into believing that the Kingdom of God and all its accompanying signs were going to
transpire in His lifetime?
=============================
Some aspects of the kingdom of God transpired very soon after His ascension. He said that He would give to Peter the keys of the kingdom of the heavens (Matthew 16:19).
On the day of Pentacost Peter used one key to let the Jews into the church life which was the practical kingdom of the heavens. And in the house of Cornelius he used the other key to let the Gentiles in.
I think that because your heart is so closed to God that you have no understanding of the inward working of the kingdom. Everything you understand about the kingdom is outward and only touches the surface of the skin. Your concept of the kingdom of God is therefore totally wrapped up in outward things.
But for the saved we must be born again to enter into the kingdom. So the kingdom is in stages. Today it is the stage of Him planting the kingdom life within our hearts to grow and spread His government within us.
When He physically returns then that will be another stage of the kingdom’s manifestation in outward glory. The kingdom of God is really from within working its way out. You only understand the kingdom of God as clouds and calamities of an outward nature.
That will come when it comes. And most people will think that it has come too soon rather than too late, even after so many centries.
Originally posted by jaywill
Verse 28 does not say that they would not taste death until they see ”the Son of Man … come in the glory of His Father with His angels”
Naturally, I meant verse 26. You mean, you think that Jesus was suddenly talking about
two different events -- one where He comes in glory with His father and His angels and
another where the Kingdom of God
Verse 28 says “Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom”
We are both off. It's verse 27 and it says: There are some standing here who will not taste death
until they see the kingdom of God.
Eisin tines ton autou estekoton oi ou me geusontai
There are some of the ones here having stood who will by no means taste
thanatou eos an idosin ten Basileian tou Theou.
death until they see the Kingdom of God.
So, are you suggesting they saw the Kingdom of God? By your own admission, the Kingdom of
God is a process which is not fully realized even now. And, by your own admission, the
Transfiguration was a preview of the Kingdom. So, do you think seeing a trailer is the same as
seeing a movie? Of course not.
So either the Kingdom of God has arrived, or Jesus was misleading.
What is more stricking to me is that it must have happened. For if you are correct it is all the more significant that Matthew did not exclude the event. If Jesus did break His promise, which I don’t believe is the proper interpretation, how significant that Matthew would not conceal the embaressment. Rather he faithfully records the words of Christ without partiality.
Or, St Matthew (whose oral tradition fell within the lifetime of the Disciples) thought the
Kingdom was on its way (like St Paul did).
Christ as God incarnate as a man sometimes was under the limitations of a normal man. He may not have known of the tranfiguration experience to come at the time He made the prediction. Sometimes He was surprised at something someone said. And at another time He marveled at someone else’s faith.
So being a man also He could have prophesied something in the distant future not knowing what personal experience the Father would grant Him eight days hence.
Well, do you think that Jesus was surprised when the Transfiguration took place? The text merely
says that the three Disciples were surprised. And, of course, accepting this view entails that
you believe that they saw the Kingdom of God (not a preview).
Something is slightly humorous about that. I don’t know what or what to reply. But anyway you did succeed in making me chuckle.
I was being cativo. I only sought to illustrate that a prophesy about something totally within
the realm of control of the individual is hardly remarkable.
I think when Jesus comes most people will think that it is too soon rather than too late.
Sure, but what about the people who are long dead whom He instructed to hold their head erect?
He was talking to a tiny group of people using the second person plural saying that their
redemption (not the world's) is close at hand, that these signs are coming soon and that they
should be ready.
At the very least, Jesus was being misleading: telling this tiny group of people that these
signs and their accompanying redemption is close at hand. At worst, He was in error.
I think you should rather Say “Lord Jesus. Thank you that I am still in the age of grace. Thankyou that I still have time to get to know you.”
Don't you worry. Jesus and I are buds.
As I said before, in the writings of the first apostles toward the end of their lives we see no depression and dejection that Christ has broken His promise.
But we do! Why do you think II Peter chapter 3 was written? Because a bunch of people heard
that 'Redemption is close at hand' and it really wasn't.
They may have wanted Him to come before they died. They may have expected Him to. But their mood is very triumphant and upbeat in spite of the fact that it has dawned upon them that they are soon to depart this world.
They expected Him to because He (and St Paul) proclaimed that He was coming back soon
(redemption close at hand, signs coming before generations passing, seeing the Kingdom of God).
The Kingdom of God is near, He said. And before that He mentions all manner of signs -- suns, water, whatever. Jesus instructs His audience to stand erect when these signs happen, that the generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
But His audience did pass away; later readers cannot be construed as members of the
'you all' in His speech. If Jesus had intended such a thing, He could have used a third person
plural (like 'believers ought to stand erect for the time when the Son of Man comes,' or whatever).
I think [b]“generation” in Matthew 24:34 does not refer to an age or a person like in 1:17. I think generation here refers to the moral condition of the people, like the generations in 11:16; 12:39, 41-42, 45 and Proverbs 30:11-14.[/b]
I'm sure you do, because it conveniently allows a prophesy to have no end date. However, there
is no compelling reason to do so.
Some aspects of the kingdom of God transpired very soon after His ascension.
Remember, these are the signs: There will be signs in the sun, the moon and the stars, and on
earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die
of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be
shaken. And they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Do you really think this has happened? The (re)formation of Israel isn't a sign listed by Jesus
here. The beginning of global warming isn't mentioned here.
I think that because your heart is so closed to God that you have no understanding of the inward working of the kingdom. Everything you understand about the kingdom is outward and only touches the surface of the skin. Your concept of the kingdom of God is therefore totally wrapped up in outward things.
LOL. The ol' secret decoder ring theory. If I just 'open my heart to Jesus, it will all be clear.'
But opening my heart entails closing my mind. You think Jesus wants this? You think Jesus just
wants people to gloss over authors who attribute words to Him? You think Jesus wants us to be
non-critical?
But for the saved we must be born again to enter into the kingdom.
Sigh. I should just give up. It's not born again but born from above. And
Jesus makes it pretty clear that being born from above is not a discrete moment in time,
but (as you say) a constant evolution.
When He physically returns then that will be another stage of the kingdom’s manifestation in outward glory. The kingdom of God is really from within working its way out. You only understand the kingdom of God as clouds and calamities of an outward nature.
Wrong. I don't understand the Kingdom of God as having an outward nature at all. I think the
coming of the Kingdom of God entails having people on earth act in a compassionate and loving
way towards each other. The authors of the Gospels (mis)understood as the Kingdom of God
as having these outward, calamitous nature, which I think is a shame. What is a bigger shame is
that Christians seem to like to make a career of defending these silly prophesies rather than just
simply saying: 'That was how people thought then. We've evolved past the 'angry god' motif and
the 'god's gonna getcha if you're naughty' idea.'
And most people will think that it has come too soon rather than too late, even after so many centries.
Couldn't be soon enough for me. I'm sick of all the hatred and violence in the world, particularly
that which is done in the name of so-called peaceful religions.
Nemesio
Before I reply to your last post ...
===============================================
Um. I did notice. Do you think that the Transfiguration constitutes the 'Son of Man coming in the glory of the Father and the holy angels?' I'm not sure you do, because you refer to it as a preview.
==============================================
What did Peter say? He was there and he witnessed the event.
”For we did not follow clevery devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One’s majesty … while we were with Him on the holy mountain” (See 2 Peter 1:16-18)
Jesus told the three disciples not to tell anyone of the vision until He be raised from the dead. That is because He redemptive death and voctorious resurrection were indespensible components of His final coming. Yes, they witnessed a foretaste and a preview of His second coming. We do need some preparation, you know.
Don’t expect any longer the meek and mild Savior riding in on a donkey. It was a preparatory preview, the transfiguration.
Actually, His coming is not only from the heavens. His coming is also from within those mature in the divine life. He is coming from within the ones ripened for the manifestation of the glory of His life. This why Paul speaks about Christ being marveled at ”in” those who believe:
”When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed …” (2 Thess. 1:10)
As the glory of the divinity shown out from within Him on the mountain and in His physical coming, so He is ”Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27) to be manifested in those who love His appearing.
What they saw on the Mount of Tranfiguration was a preview of not only His coming but of His being glorfied in those awaiting His coming with love.
In Matthew’s gospel the kingdom of the heavens has three aspects.
1.) The reality of its inward nature
2.) The façade of its false appearance
3.) The manifestation of its visible power
All the verses on the kingdom fall pretty much into one of these three catagories. Two are positive - #1 and #3. The verses on the kingdom which are related to the façade of Christiandom are #2. These are negative references.
In on other words there is a reality of the kingdom going on in the church life inwardly in the kingdom people, and there is the façade of the kingdom surrounding them in the deformed religiousity of the world, and finally there is the reward of the manifestation of the kingdom at Christ’s second coming. The Mount of Tranfiguration experience concerned a preview of the manifestation of the kingdom within the King who for certain is in the inward reality of the kingdom. We get a glimps of what the manifestation of His inward kingdom life will be like.
The apostles were very responsible and sober to prepare their listeners for the long haul perchance Christ should not return immediately. There is nothing naïve about their attitude. They are neither depressed or disappointed. They certainly wanted Him to come. And they expected His soon return. But they were sober minded and responsible to teach that it was not up to them.
In the epistles there is the preparation for the long distance run not the short distance run. And Peter and Paul speak of their soon approaching demise, not in terms of disappointment, but in victorious terms. And we have been encouraged for the long haul for 2,000 years by their example.
While the years pass Christ is gathering the mature ones here and there in every century who will be co-kings with Him when He comes. Since cooperation with His salvation is a matter of choice, those who choose consecration are those who will be rewarded to reign with Him in His kingdom. Year after year as the saints pass He is collecting from all His children the mature ones who will be overcomers and co-kings with Him.
The others will be further matured in the coming age. And those who reject Christ’s salvation will perish in eternal punishment. It is very serious.
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio,
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]Verse 28 does not say that they would not taste death until they see ”the Son of Man … come in the glory of His Father with His angels”
Naturally, I meant verse 26. You mean, you think that Jesus was suddenly talking about
two different events -- one where He comes in glory with His father and His angels and
ich is done in the name of so-called peaceful religions.
Nemesio[/b]
You may be sick of this and sick of that. The wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.
Because you are sickened by these things does that make you not a participant? Does that make you any different.
To be in the kingdom of God is to have the life of God. Just as to be in kingdom of cats you have to have the life of a cat.
For humans to have the life of God they must be born again with that life implanted into them. That is a beginning. Though I did say that the kingdom is in stages I did not say that with us it has no beginning.
So birth from above is the entrance into the first stage. Just as human birth brings you into the growth of human life for the human kingdom, so birth of Christ within you brings you into growth of Christ within for the kingdom of God.
We need another life. He has not come to repair or fix our lives. He has come to put us to the cross and resurrect us with Himself to walk in a new life. He is radical. Radical in that He goes to the root of the problem. That is what radical means.
Christ is the true radical going to the root of man's problem. We need another life. We need the life of God - man. We need a life which is the human life mingled and united with the divine life. And that commences with the new birth.
If we are cooperative in a normal way it continues is the growth of that life and the formation and shaping of Christ within us. As Paul told the Galatian Christians:
"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ be formed in you" (Gal. 4:19)
Christ needed to take shape and be formed in thier living. Being born of Christ is not an end in itself. Birth is for growth and maturity - that Christ would be formed in us.
Christ being formed in a group of people is the only hope of the world. It is the ONLY hope of the world. So if you really cared about the condition of the world you would turn yourself over that Christ would be born into you and be formed into you.
If you shut Christ out of your heart don't tell us how you care for the world's situation. You may, but you care for your own self life much more. So if you really care then open your heart and allow Jesus to come in and be formed in you.
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The authors of the Gospels (mis)understood as the Kingdom of God
as having these outward, calamitous nature, which I think is a shame. What is a bigger shame is that Christians seem to like to make a career of defending these silly prophesies rather than just
simply saying: 'That was how people thought then. We've evolved past the 'angry god' motif and the 'god's gonna getcha if you're naughty' idea.'
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It is a small thing for Jesus Christ to split the sky and make a loud noise and to come with millions of angels. That is no big deal.
What is a big deal is to separate us from our self love so that we would let His Spirit enter and reign in us. Look at how hard it is for you to stop spewing out your opposition to the words of Jesus and His apostles. You are selective. You choose a few things which suit your disposition.
This King rules from the inside out. He rules from the innermost part of a man's being. With you the kingdom of God is not legitimate unless the spectacular prophecies come to pass. I have no doubt at all that He will come from above.
Prophecy in principle only discribes things in partial terms. I would expect much more to occur. But today I must enjoy His reigning kingship while driving in traffic, while working amongst my co-workers. I have to enjoy my King in speaking with my wife and caring for both friends and enemies.
The kingdom of God is God working and wroughting Jesus into our being. That is not easy for Him to do. It is easy for Him to darken the sun and turn the color of the moon. That's nothing to God. They are not living and give Him no problem.
But you and I are living people with a strong will. We give God a lot of trouble. For He will not force us. The Holy Spirit is depicted as a dove. A dove is gentle.
The Holy Spirit is gentle. He is gentle but also eternal and indistructible. Don't take His gentleness as weakness. He will get through a group of cooperative people. We will love Him back. We will woo Him back with our cooperation. He has to have some people to come back to.
He comes for a bride to marry. He comes for a mature bride and not an immature adolescent teenager. So the Christians, a good number of them, will woo the Lord back by loving Him and living Him.
The only way to bring back the King is to love Him back and live by Him until He comes. And He will come. We are enjoying His invisible presence now. And soon we will enjoy His visible presence.
But if you don't repent to be saved when He comes you will be cast into the fire and be punished for your sins and your rejection of His salvation.
It is serious. And incidently, practically speaking Christ comes for you whenever you leave this life. You are not promised even this evening. You don't know what tomorrow will bring. When you depart this life that will be His second coming as far as you are concerned.
So consider the time and His longsuffering towards you to repent and believe the gospel.
This Hymn writer understood the simplicity of touching Jesus by calling on the name of Jesus. She wrote:
"Jesus, Jesus Mighty Savior
In thy name is all I need.
Just to breath the name of Jesus,
Is to drink of life indeed."
To this writer to call on the name of Jesus was to "breath" the spiritual air. It was to drink of divine life.
Another hymn writer wrote this stanza:
"Oh Jesus Jesus dearest Lord
Forgive me if I say,
For very love thy sacred name,
A thousand times a day."
This writer was so drawn by love as to want to call on the name of Jesus 1 thousand times a day. That must mean in all the daily circumstances of life the writer found it was a good time to call "Jesus, Lord Jesus."
The writer then explains how calling on the name of Jesus caused love to burn for Him:
"Burn, burn, O love within my heart,
Burn fiercly night and day,
Till all the drose of earthly loves
Is burned and burned away.
O Jesus, Lord with me abide;
I rest in Thee whate'er betide;
Thy gracious smile is my reward;
I love, I love Thee, Lord!"
The writer calls on the name of the Living Person of Christ Jesus. And this causes the divine smile of the Son of God to be detected deep in the human spirit. The loves of earthly things which in comparison to Christ are drose, are burned and burned away. The divine love of God burns in the heart night and day.
We can enter into this kind of relationship with Christ by beginning to call on the name of Jesus, breathing the living air, drinking the living water of the Holy Spirit.
The love and smile of Jesus was all the reward that this caller longed for:
"Thy gracious smile is my reward; I love, I love Thee, Lord!"
The writer's ambition is only to return that great love for the Savior that He manifested in dying on the cross for that sinner's sins.
Can you imagine that? Only to sense the returned smile at the thankful gratitude towards Jesus, this was this person's longed for reward. Earthly fame and position and all her idols were only dross by comparison to the smile of Jesus.
I got to about the 5th page, then started yawning a skipped ahead.
But vistesd (sp?) pretty much said everything that needed to be said in the 3rd page.
Not to be offensive Jaywill, but the only impression you've left on me is of this big ecstatic, fantastic, metaphorical orgasm that comes with a spiritual awakening (your version would be the active love of Christ, God, ect...).
But saying your spiritual jouney is any more sincere and true than somebody else's (who may by chance due to birthplace and upbringing not believe in Christ) is just YOUR view of the bigger picture, that prevents your from seeing anyone elses.
Dear seeking friends. After the sneers of dying liars, here's another marvelous song on the experience of Christ as reality.
Christ is the one reality of all,
Of Godhead and of man and all things else
No man without Him ever findeth God,
Without Him man and everything is false.
All the types and figures of the ancient time,
All things we ever need, both great and small,
Only are shadows of the Christ of God,
Showing that He must be our all in all.
All things are vanity of vanities.
Christ, the reality all things to fill;
Though everything we may enjoy and own,
If we're devoid of Christ we're empty still.
Christ is our real God, our real Lord,
Christ is our real life, our real light;
Christ is our real food, our real drink,
Our real clothing, and our real might.
Christ is also the one reality
Of all our doctrine and theology;
And all our scriptural knowledge without Him
Is just in letter and is vanity.
Christ, the reality of time and space,
Christ, the reality of every stage;
Christ is the one reality of all
Thru all eternity from age to age.
Hymn 496 W. Lee
Living Stream Ministry