Originally posted by NemesioAre the following references on point here?
Do you think a Buddhist can demonstrate: Peace, Forgiveness, Love,
Praise and Thanksgiving, Endurance, and Longsuffering?
Nemesio
NRS Galatians 5:22, 23—By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things.
NRS Matthew 7:16—You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
And, as William James added: “...by their fruits...” not by their roots.
Originally posted by jaywillJust a few sentences ago, I asked you how you would know if someone had received Christ in
If he or she receives Christ into their heart, why not?
his/her heart (i.e., born again). You said Deepening Love, Deepening This, Deepening That...
I then asked if a Buddhist can display these qualities. You said yes.
I then asked if you thought the Buddhist was born again. You said if he received Christ in his heart.
Let me be somewhat clearer: Can a Buddhist (who has not received Christ in his heart) display the
qualities you had mentioned above?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI think that the general purpose of your question is to prove that the results I mentioned of being regenerated are not unique to Christians.
Just a few sentences ago, I asked you how you would know if someone had received Christ in
his/her heart (i.e., born again). You said Deepening Love, Deepening This, Deepening That...
I then asked if a Buddhist can display these qualities. You said yes.
I then asked if you thought the Buddhist was born again. You said if he received Christ in his h ...[text shortened]... has not received Christ in his heart) display the
qualities you had mentioned above?
Nemesio
One may reason - Deepening Love? So what? Even Hitler's love deepened for his fiancee before he married her and blew his brains out. How much more could an atheist or a Buddhist also have "deepening love".
We are made in the image of God. So in that natural image is the capacity to love in a natural way. And even that natural love may deepen and encrease.
With the normal Chistian life the natural love goes through a crucifixion and resurrection. It is Christ loving within our loving. And that the Buddhist cannot do. But he certainly may have a natural kind of love which exists simply because he is created in God's image.
You don't have to be a Christian to have endurance. Even Judas Isacariot endured the announce of following Jesus for three years. Deep in his heart he probably never believed that He was the Lord. So Judas showed endurance. How much more could a Buddhist have endurance.
The endurance which counts for eternity and which counts for building the kingdom of God is Christ as our endurance. Our natural endurance runs out but Christ within becomes the one enduring within the regenerated.
This is why Paul wrote: "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal.2:20)
This is not an easy passage. But it is crucial.
Paul had tremendous natural ability; smarts, deligence, persistance, edurance, etc. But now he says he is crucified with Christ and it is no longer he who lives. His independent and self serving I (ego) has been crucified upon acknowledging Jesus as Lord - "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live"
Christ has dethroned the ego of Paul and placed Christ as his new center. And it is now Paul living in organic union with Christ. It is as if Christ has been grafted into him as one grafts a healthy branch into a sickly branch. The health of the healthy branch swollows up the defects of the unhealthy branch. " ... it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me"
The living which counts for God's eternal purpose is the living of Christ in a person. The natural man with his endurance and love, however deep, must gradually come to the cross and be terminated - "it is no longer I who live". Then it is brought back infused with the element of God in Christ. And it is man living in union with God as Jesus the Son lived in union with His Father - " .. but it is Christ who lives in me ..."
In the passage of Galatians 2:20 the "I" is terminated and resurrected as the Christ indwelt "I" who lives in faith.
So the natural "I" of the Buddhist may show love and endurance. I am not too sure to whom thanksgiving and praise would be directed. But they could express that also.
This natural living cannot build up the kingdom of God and will not count for eternity. It is the living which is Christ in resurection being expressed from within that counts for eternity and is alone useful to God in building up New Jerusalem.
This process of Christ being formed in a person is not instantaneous. It is not one magical moment. It is a life long process of transformation and growth. And not all believers cooperate with it in this age. But they will have to cooperate eventually.
Paul was one who fully cooperated. So he writes that he was crucified with Christ and he excercises his natural life no longer. The life he now lives he lives in organic union with the indwelling Son of God. It is Christ living in him. The endurance comes out of this union. The love comes out of this union. The praise and thanksgiving also come out of this union.
Christians should display the highest level of morality on the earth.
I would ask you to read through this explanation at least twice carefully, beause the concepts are not easy, before you comment, please.
Originally posted by KellyJayI think I might have discussed this in greater detail with you in the past (if not you, then certainly with someone on this forum some months back). Anyhow, the point is simply this: the "born again/above of water and Spirit" line is part of Jesus's dialogue with Nicodemus in John's Gospel (ch.3). This is evidently a reference back to Jesus's own baptism (ch.1; the significance of water and Spirit should be obvious). Keeping in mind that the Evangelist did not split his narrative into chapters (that happened centuries later); and early Christians would have been reading most (if not all) of John as a single continuous narrative, the back-reference would have been obvious to those listening. If that weren't enough, one just has to read what Jesus does immediately after the Nicodemus dialogue:
Just make your point, go read some unknown specific passages of
scirpture does not answer my question.
Kelly
3.22: After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.
I've read your post, but in regards to the question that I had, it
seemed to equivocate a bit. Recall that I asked how can a person
know (without speaking to the subject in question) whether another
person has received Christ in his/her heart.
Your answer was conclusive: Deepening this, and Deepening that...
You have subsequently written that Hitler and Judas had Deepening
This and That.
So, I'll ask again: how would you know if person X has received Christ
in his/her heart without speaking to that person (talk is cheap, anyway)?
Originally posted by jaywill
This process of Christ being formed in a person is not instantaneous. It is not one magical moment. It is a life long process of transformation and growth. And not all believers cooperate with it in this age. But they will have to cooperate eventually.
So there is no one discrete moment before which one is not saved
and after which one is saved?
Christians should display the highest level of morality on the earth.
I know you wrote 'should.' Do you really feel that they do?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI don't recall the question that you asked being the question that you now say you asked. But I will go back and see.
I've read your post, but in regards to the question that I had, it
seemed to equivocate a bit. Recall that I asked how can a person
know (without speaking to the subject in question) whether another
person has received Christ in his/her heart.
Your answer was conclusive: Deepening this, and Deepening that...
You have subsequently written that Hitl on the earth.
I know you wrote 'should.' Do you really feel that they do?
Nemesio[/b]
Throughout the Bible it seems that God had to work with a remnant of those who were normal and victorious. There were thousands who followed Jesus around. But there were only 120 in the upper room waiting for the Holy Spirit. Where were the thousands who were healed and fed and taught? These 120 victorious ones were a remnant of those who are at the standard. They are not above the standard or super spiritual. They are rather normal and at the standard.
I know the the remant of those victorious normal ones display the highest level of morality on the earth. They are overcomers. They are more than conquerors.
We are told to be imitators of those who by faith are inheriting the promises. So, yes, I believe that God reserves for Himself a remnant and a minority which are normal in terms of what He has for them.
As for me, I intend to follow Jesus. I don't intend to look around to see who is victorious and who is not. I don't want to use the abnormality of other believers as a rational for me not to be a disciples of Christ.
As for me, I intend to follow Jesus.
Originally posted by NemesioSome people seem to want to wait until the perfect Christians come their way before they will accept Christ. If they have flaws or display imperfection in any way they feel comforted that they have good reason not to accept Christ as the Lord.
I've read your post, but in regards to the question that I had, it
seemed to equivocate a bit. Recall that I asked how can a person
know (without speaking to the subject in question) whether another
person has received Christ in his/her heart.
Your answer was conclusive: Deepening this, and Deepening that...
You have subsequently written that Hitl ...[text shortened]... on the earth.
I know you wrote 'should.' Do you really feel that they do?
Nemesio[/b]
I have been captured by the sheer beauty and perfection of the Son of God. Had I noticed that this or that Christian still had some problems, therefore I should not believe, I may have waisted my whole life excusing myself from receiving Christ.
I read of Peter's mistakes, Paul's misstep. James' error, and the mistakes of many Christians. I don't intend to wait for the perfect Christian to come by before I love and follow the Lord Jesus.
You are inferring that I am or would or wouldn't want to be a Christian based on what
other Christians are like. This is not the nature of my question. You ask that I read
your posts carefully, and I do. But you do not show me the same courtesy. I am asking
questions to discern precisely what you think it means to be a Christian, but you aren't
answering them in any meaningful sort of way, but instead going off on tangents.
If you want people to find a 'Simple Way to Christ,' quoting snippets of Scripture out of
context in answer to direct questions won't cut it.
You have written that having Jesus in your heart has changed you in some manifest way.
I am seeking to find out what that way is. I asked, how will a person know by your
actions and not your mouth -- Jesus Himself says lip service is meaningless -- such
that they would know Jesus was really in your heart?
I also asked this question: So there is no one discrete moment before which one is not
saved and after which one is saved?
You also suggested that Christians should display the highest level of morality on the
earth. Do you really believe that they do in fact display this?
Do you think that the average Buddhist (for example) has a 'lower level' of morality than
the average Christian?
Nemesio
You'll have to remember, jaywill, that Nemesio (inexplicably) takes it upon himself to make every person give a reason for their faith. He likes to play the antagonist which often-times devolves into silly wordplay and semantics. But don't take it hard: in searching to answer his queries, you will be forced to ask (and answer) any vagarity which many be lingering in the recesses of your own thinking.
Originally posted by NemesioWhich "snippet" of Scripture did I quote out of context?
You are inferring that I am or would or wouldn't want to be a Christian based on what
other Christians are like. This is not the nature of my question. You ask that I read
your posts carefully, and I do. But you do not show me the same courtesy. I am asking
questions to discern precisely what you think it means to be a Christian, but you aren't
answe ist (for example) has a 'lower level' of morality than
the average Christian?
Nemesio
I am not interested in the "average" Buddhist or the "average" Christian. I have no discriptive statistics for you on this matter.
I am interested in the normal Christian life which is a victorious and overcoming life. The One who is overcoming is Christ. He is the only one who is absolute for the will of the Father. It is by abiding in Him and learning to be one with Him that believers can live the highest standard of morality among human beings.
A Simple Way To Experience Christ by calling upon His name is good for the initial touching of Christ. But it is also good for a subsequent continued walk with Christ.
It is perfectly in context for me at this point to say it as Paul said it:
"As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him" (Col. 2:6)
The context is how, having received Christ, can we continue to live in Him. Paul says as you received Him, continue to walk in Him.
I think the best way for you to find out what it is the be a Christian is to ask Christ into your own life. You see God is not there just to satisfy our curiosity. God is there to be God. He is there to be God in you and I as divine life. Divine life comes as a seed. But if we continue to walk in the realm of God this life grows and spreads. The result is He transforms us into the image of Christ by His Spirit.
Here again is a verse confirming that this is not my teaching by the Bible's. And it is not used out of context:
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unvieled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
1.) To be in Christ is to experience ever growing freedom. As the Spirit spreads within one's personality, she finds freedom. This is the freedom of self control.
2.) To be in Christ is to have the insulation taken away from our heart. The "veil" over our inner "eyes" are made clear. Many things become clear to our discernment.
3.) To be in Christ is to behold and reflect the glory of the Lord Jesus. The more you spend time in communion with Jesus the more you reflect His glorious image. People begin to see Christ in you. You grow from one degree of glory to another degree of glory - "from glory to glory"
The Lord Spirit Who is Christ performs this.
4.) To be in Christ is to be headed towards the destination of being transformed eventually into the same image.
We receive Christ for the purpose of being transformed into His image.
I have no poll information on whose better - teh average Buddhist or the average Christian. But taking a few verses quite in context I have tried to show you that Christ implants Himself actually within our hearts. And if we are normal we will grow and be transformed and conformed to be more and more like Him.
You might try reading some autobiographies of some exemplary disciples. I might suggest George Muller's autobiography or Hudson Taylor's.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHNot asking questions is a sure sign that your faith is stagnant. Not answering questions
You'll have to remember, jaywill, that Nemesio (inexplicably) takes it upon himself to make every person give a reason for their faith. He likes to play the antagonist which often-times devolves into silly wordplay and semantics. But don't take it hard: in searching to answer his queries, you will be forced to ask (and answer) any vagarity which many be lingering in the recesses of your own thinking.
is a sure sign that you are scared your faith might be based on something untrue, poorly
conceived, weakly founded, or downright maleficent.
Nemesio
Originally posted by jaywill
Which "snippet" of Scripture did I quote out of context?
Any time you quote a verse or two of a text 2000 years old written to a specific group of
people with a culture completely removed from ours translated from a foreign language.
I am not interested in the "average" Buddhist or the "average" Christian. I have no discriptive statistics for you on this matter.
If you have no statistics or even any knowledge, how can you assert that an abiding Christian
will live a life of the highest morality?
Furthermore, you haven't provided me with any distinct markers for determining what a
Christian ought to be (since you yourself said that Hitler can embody the very qualities
which you said a Christian would embody).
I am interested in the normal Christian life which is a victorious and overcoming life. The One who is overcoming is Christ. He is the only one who is absolute for the will of the Father. It is by abiding in Him and learning to be one with Him that believers can live the highest standard of morality among human beings.
When you say 'It is by abiding in Him...' do you mean to suggest that 'It is only by abiding
in Him...?' Or can Buddhists, too, live the 'highest standard of morality among human beings?'
A Simple Way To Experience Christ by calling upon His name is good for the initial touching of Christ. But it is also good for a subsequent continued walk with Christ.
You've yet to tell me what a person who 'continues to walk with Christ' does that is uniquely
distinguishing (again, I, like Jesus, am uninterested in what they 'say'😉
You might try reading some autobiographies of some exemplary disciples. I might suggest George Muller's autobiography or Hudson Taylor's.
While these men accomplished a great deal of good in their lives, their own accounts of such an
experience strikes me as contrary to Jesus's teachings, who seems to applaud work done
anonymously and certainly doesn't endorse public declarations of them.
Anyway, talk is cheap. The creation of orphanages is a wonderful and laudable thing. But,
certainly, you are aware that Buddhists have built and maintain many orphanages.
Nemesio
===========================
Which "snippet" of Scripture did I quote out of context?
Any time you quote a verse or two of a text 2000 years old written to a specific group of people with a culture completely removed from ours translated from a foreign language.
===========================
I don’t think that quoting ancient writings is in and of itself quoting out of context. Many people quote ancient writings and understand that their wisdom is relevant to today even among non-spiritual prose.
Jesus said ”Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away” (Luke 21:33). His words are more stable than the physical universe itself.
Not only are His words more firmly established then the physical universe but He Himself is with us unto the end of the age:
” … behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age” (Matt. 28:20b)
Secondly, the work of God in the heart is as effective today in this millennium’s culture as it was 2,000 years ago. God is eternal. And there are aspects of His salvation that don’t change with the passing of years. In fact they have stood the test of time, whereby we can trust Him.
From the time of Abraham to the time of David to the time of Paul represents a significant passing of ages and adjustments in culture. Yet we still see God’s faithfulness, God’s love, God’s power, God’s glory, righteousness, and holiness at work in the lives of His people uneffected by the changing of the age and culture.
So the Lord Jesus says that building one’s life on His teaching is like the wise man building his house upon a rock. The wind and waves and rain will not destroy it. But so many human teachings are like the building of a house on sand. They will eventually be eroded and collapse. People need deliverance from the power of sin in today’s culture as much as in the first century. And in some respects even more so. Some things are not effected by the change of the age . And the passage of time has gone to demonstrate the trustworthiness of the gospel message from the eternal God to man.
===================================
I am not interested in the "average" Buddhist or the "average" Christian. I have no discriptive statistics for you on this matter.
If you have no statistics or even any knowledge, how can you assert that an abiding Christian will live a life of the highest morality?
===========================
I mean I have no pie charts or graphs as discriptive statistics for you. I did not say that I had no knowledge.
Let me give you an example from my own life. Some years after maturing more in the Christian walk the Holy Spirit reminded me of a book I had stolen from a university book store during highschool years. This theft took place before I turned my life over to Jesus. But the Holy Spirit reminded me that I should restore that theft. The item was $18. But this was years latter. I wrote the book store and confessed that I had stolen an $18 item. I included a check for $48. This choice of $48 was just what seemed to be on my heart as to what the interest might come out to be by that time. The store wrote back and thanked me and told me that the price of that kind of book was about approximately $48.
I was glad to make restitution where I could. Other people I have made apologies to for long past offenses. This kind of restitution of the past as well as regulation in the present is typical of the normal Christian life. I don’t know how average it is.
The one keeping track of these things is God. And one day the counting up will be made known by Him. To love and follow the Spirit of Christ I do not need to keep a record. It is enough that I have brothers and sisters whose experiences I can learn from as I grow along the same path of maturity as they.
=================================
Furthermore, you haven't provided me with any distinct markers for determining what a Christian ought to be (since you yourself said that Hitler can embody the very qualities which you said a Christian would embody).
=================
I said that being a normal Christian is being in the process of being transformed into the image of Christ. In what area He will begin to work in your life may differ from where He begins in my life.
In my case I said some of the first things were a desire to first confess before man that I belonged to Jesus. This was a big difference from the mockings and jokes about God which preceeded. I had a hunger for the word of God whereas before I had none. Then tastes and attitudes begin to change. Old enjoyments of sin began to become not enjoyable anymore. Rather I enjoyed to live unto Jesus.
This was and still is a gradual growth process. A person had idols in their life before meeting Christ. The normally growing Christian will turn away from idols to the living God. An idol is anything that replaces God in our lives or which we put before God. Which idol will drop off first in your experience I don’t know.
But I do know that the love for other things besides God will no longer fill your heart. We may own and enjoy many things. But they will be put into perspective and not be idols. Rather God and Christ gradually become more and more our center, our aim, and the Person to which our life is calibrated towards.
When one becomes a disciples he or she should be baptized right away. That may be the first marker of obediance. You testify to the world in a symbol that your old life has been buried with Christ in His death. And your new life is in now in resurrection with Him. Let baptism be your first act of obediance.
==============================
I am interested in the normal Christian life which is a victorious and overcoming life. The One who is overcoming is Christ. He is the only one who is absolute for the will of the Father. It is by abiding in Him and learning to be one with Him that believers can live the highest standard of morality among human beings.
When you say 'It is by abiding in Him...' do you mean to suggest that 'It is only by abiding in Him...?' Or can Buddhists, too, live the 'highest standard of morality among human beings?'
=================================
It is only by abiding in Christ that one can live the standard of morality that the kingdom of God requires. This is because only Christ is absolute for the will of the Father. Our absoluteness for the will of God comes only as we are in union and fellowship with Him. Without Him we can do nothing unto the kingdom of God. Without Him all that we do do will amount to nothing for the kingdom of God.
His kingdom is the realm in which He excercises His authority over our lives. Yet He also applies the grace and the supply of inward life which enables us to live in His kingdom.
The “bright virtue” spoken of by the Buddhist is probably the God created human conscience. An unbeliever can cultivate the strong intention to live by the “bright virtue” or the God created human conscience. Such people who try to go along with their conscience will usually be of a higher morality than those who do not.
But the empowering of the life of Christ surpassess what the unregenerated religious minded can do. And even the cultivating of soulical power and latent psychic energy through meditation techniques will not accomplish what the indwelling Spirit of the resurrected Son of God can do.
But a Buddhist can live a high standard of morality. Religion, in that sense, can be a preservative keeping people restrained from running morally wild. When I use the world “religion” I mean man’s striving to live for God apart from Christ. This would include “Christian religion” too. Living apart from Christ yet trying to live for God is “religious” and useless in the building up of the kingdom of God.
============================
A Simple Way To Experience Christ by calling upon His name is good for the initial touching of Christ. But it is also good for a subsequent continued walk with Christ.
You've yet to tell me what a person who 'continues to walk with Christ' does that is uniquely distinguishing (again, I, like Jesus, am uninterested in what they 'say'😉
=============================
Jesus didn’t say that He was uninterested in what the kingdom people say. He may have said that He was uninterested in hypocrisy – saying one thing but living another.
But since the disciples will give an account to God for every careless word that they utter, obviously, He is interested in what His disciples say if you are not:
”The good man, out of his good treasure, brings forth good things, and the evil man, out of his evil treasure, brings forth evil things.
And I say to you that every idle word which men shall speak, they will render an account concerning it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned” (Matt. 12:25-37)
Here Jesus wants to heart to become a treasure of good things. And these riches will be manifested in one’s speaking. He records our words. And one day He will play them back to us. This is why we need the blood of Christ for forgiveness to erase our sins on one hand. And this is why we need His life dispensed into us to transform our hearts to be a treasure overflowing through the mouth and deeds of divine riches profitable for the kingdom of God.
I agree with you that words which are betrayed by actions are not the words which God wants. So we need forgiveness, salvation, and transformation by the Spirit of Jesus.
======================
You might try reading some autobiographies of some exemplary disciples. I might suggest George Muller's autobiography or Hudson Taylor's.
While these men accomplished a great deal of good in their lives, their own accounts of such an experience strikes me as contrary to Jesus's teachings, who see.....