abortion

Originally posted by Nemesio

Seeing as I cannot prove that the 'soul' exists and, from a rational
standpoint, it's probable that it doesn't, I see no justification for
imposing my opinion on other people.

Nemesio

Have you heard rational prove of that morals even exist and that they should be shoved doen the unborn humans throat?

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
Have you heard rational prove of that morals even exist and that they should be shoved doen the unborn humans throat?

Sodomy is the answer.

Seriously, what do you propose the solution to abortion is?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Sodomy is the answer.

Seriously, what do you propose the solution to abortion is?

I think abortion is murder so if you want to legalise murder then I agree with you that abortion should be legalised as well.
If you want to ban murder then I think you should ban abortion as well.

EDIT: What do you mean by solution?

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
What do you mean by solution?

As far as I know abortion is legal in the Netherlands. If your views are correct, the law will have to change--so how do you intend achieving that?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
As far as I know abortion is legal in the Netherlands. If your views are correct, the law will have to change--so how do you intend achieving that?

By working towards legalising murder as well.😀

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
By working towards legalising murder as well.

Restore the balance of nature 🙂

Of course under certain circumstances it is morally permissible to kill another person. So I'm not sure if what you're talking about really is always murder.

Would it be murder for a woman to take a "morning after" pill seven days after conception?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage

Of course under certain circumstances it is morally permissible to kill another person. So I'm not sure if what you're talking about really is always murder.

Would it be murder for a woman to take a "morning after" pill seven days after conception?

"Of course under certain circumstances it is morally permissible to kill another person. So I'm not sure if what you're talking about really is always murder."

Where do you get your morals from? I an conviced they are subjective and far from absolute.

"Would it be murder for a woman to take a "morning after" pill seven days after conception?"

I think this would be murder yes.

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
Where do you get your morals from? I an conviced they are subjective and far from absolute.

Ever heard of self-defence?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Ever heard of self-defence?

If you base your morals on self-defence how could this ever aprove abortion?

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
If you base your morals on self-defence how could this ever aprove abortion?

That in some limited cases at least it may be permissible--say if the mother is likely to die otherwise.

Another one--a friend of my wife's is currently having to decide whether to keep a child or not. She is 26 weeks pregnant & has developed a condition that means the child could be born at any time. If it is, it will be possible to put it on life support (at tremendous cost) but it will be blind, crippled & likely brain damaged if it survives. If it is born it is viable (28 or 29 weeks) should she keep it alive or not?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
That in some limited cases at least it may be permissible--say if the mother is likely to die otherwise.

Another one--a friend of my wife's is currently having to decide whether to keep a child or not. She is 26 weeks pregnant & has developed a condition that means the child could be born at any time. If it is, it will be possible to put it on lif ...[text shortened]... ged if it survives. If it is born it is viable (28 or 29 weeks) should she keep it alive or not?

I agree with you on that. But doesn't that just mean that MURDER is morally permissible under certain circumstances?

Originally posted by LemonJello
No, that is not the way it works. The notion of fundamental rights concerns personhood, not humanhood. Apparently, by your implicit criterion, personhood and humanhood are indistinguishable, interchangeable, and essentially identical; but you have presented no reasons why this should be the case.

Yes, the fetus is a human organism. But for reasons a ...[text shortened]... er up for discussion some of the main criteria that have been proposed before in the literature.

No, that is not the way it works. The notion of fundamental rights concerns personhood, not humanhood.

Then why is it called human rights?

Apparently, by your implicit criterion, personhood and humanhood are indistinguishable, interchangeable, and essentially identical; but you have presented no reasons why this should be the case.

I am talking about human rights. You are the one that is implying that there is a difference between humanhood and personhood. Frankly I don't see how this should affect human rights. A human is a human because a human is a human. What more do you want? Are you unable to grasp such a simple concept?

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
I agree with you on that. But doesn't that just mean that MURDER is morally permissible under certain circumstances?

MUUUUUUUURDEEEEEEEERRRRRRRR.

There are different kinds of killing. Murder is not the same as killing in self-defence.

Society's views on what constitutes murder & what should be done about it have changed...Whatever happened to the wereguild?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
A fetus has the right to vote, doesn't it?

No, for the same reason that a five year-old doesn't vote. If having the right to vote made you human then you'd have to say everybody under the age of 16 is not human.

Originally posted by Nemesio
As I've said above, I am [b]not 'okay' with it.

But my reason for not being okay with it is predicated on the
concept of 'soul.'

Seeing as I cannot prove that the 'soul' exists and, from a rational
standpoint, it's probable that it doesn't, I see no justification for
imposing my opinion on other people.

Furthermore, even if I *am* ...[text shortened]... God' would think the same way, I'm sure. So,
they are the least of my concern.

Nemesio[/b]

Did I use God in my arguments? No, you asked why I felt humans
were important, once is was established that we were talking about
ending human life, that was my argument, not God. You basically
refused to answer my questions until I acknowledged God, which
I will do every time you ask a question about my faith. Having said
that, I purposely don't bring scripture into a discussion where I know
many of those I'm talking to do not acknowledge it, what good does
saying the Word of God says this or that to someone who does not
care about the Word of God? They do not bind themselves to obeying
it even if they can read and know what God wants in the scripture,
if they are not following God, they are not going to care what God
says, until God makes them.

So do not twist my arguments that I have been making to points
I was not attempting to make, just so you can back out of addressing
them. I except that from nr1 since he thinks more times than not he
can read my mind when I say one thing he knows I mean another.

The concept of soul, can you prove to me you have one now! If you
cannot, how can you prove to me when you acquired one? If you can
not prove to me when, why are you supporting the death of so many
that you do acknowledge are human? I simply do not understand
you’re reasoning here! I agree with you that you have a soul, but when
it was acquired, I don't know. What I do know is that speaking now
scripturally that God says he forms us in the womb, the Word of God
acknowledges birth, pregnancy and conception when it comes to the
process of human life. Which is where the foundation of your soul is
also found. I am aghast that you would say that God may allow those
unborn into heaven, and think the right to abort that you are
supporting is still the right thing to do.

If you know you are supporting the ending of life, the devaluing of
it at its earliest stages, why are you doing that? That isn’t even a
matter of faith like God and soul, it is something you acknowledge is
here and now and real. You do not have to support abortion, but you
should at least support the lives of those that are being killed that
cannot do anything but yield the will or choices others make for them
because they are defenseless. If you are going to defend something
or someone, why not defend those that cannot yet defend
themselves?
Kelly