abortion

Originally posted by no1marauder
We've been all through this; your claim concerning the "Groninger Protocols" is ludicrous as the only sites you've ever given which give details of the Groninger Protocols don't support your claims. Instead you rely of some secret "Groninger Protocols" which seem to exist only in the mind of you and others who want to adopt a Chicken Little approa ...[text shortened]... tual text of Groningen Protocols or any evidence that 12 year old children are being euthanized.

Every Dutchmen who reads the papers will have to admit that the "Groninger Protocols" are as real as you and me. Besides if you google on "Groninger protocols" or "Groninger Protocol" you will find they are there. Try changing your google settings to the Dutch language for a change.

For those who can read Dutch:

http://www.trouw.nl/deverdieping/overigeartikelen/article16215.ece/&rsquo%3BWe+moeten+het+kind+bijstaan&rsquo%3B

marauder: "There isn't a shred of proof that handicapped children are being euthanized and you know it."

We all know denying reality is one of your favorite hobbies but I will not engage myself in such activities if you don't mind.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I read your post on page 4 (which I think is a good, interesting post, by the way -- a lot more engaging than the usual drivel). Our views lead to the same overall conclusion, but, yes, they are fundamentally different.

One reason I think the concept of personhood (which is simply a concept that identifies fundamental rights and moral consideration) i ...[text shortened]... u have an interesting viewpoint. I am going to have to think about your case a little bit more.

The germs that cause bad breath and the tapeworm are "genetically distinguishable from the rest of her body" but it is recognized that she has the right to decide whether to gargle with Listerine or have an operation to have the tapeworm removed. The right to self-autonomy is a Natural Law right that exists as a part of our very being. No woman ever willingly surrendered it nor would any rational woman ever do so. To me, that ends the abortion debate; I have no need to engage in an esoteric discussion about when a person exists; a debate which is obviously merely based on subjective judgments.

Originally posted by no1marauder
We've been all through this; your claim concerning the "Groninger Protocols" is ludicrous as the only sites you've ever given which give details of the Groninger Protocols don't support your claims. Instead you rely of some secret "Groninger Protocols" which seem to exist only in the mind of you and others who want to adopt a Chicken Little approa ...[text shortened]... tual text of Groningen Protocols or any evidence that 12 year old children are being euthanized.

Why is it you are in the business of twisting reality ? The Groninger protocols deal with unvoluntary euthanasia on children from birth to 12 years old. The children with spina bifida I was talking about were very young children.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Every Dutchmen who reads the papers will have to admit that the "Groninger Protocols" are as real as you and me. Besides if you google on "Groninger protocols" or "Groninger Protocol" you will find they are there. Try changing your google settings to the Dutch language for a change.

For those who can read Dutch:

http://www.trouw.nl/deverdieping/o ...[text shortened]... one of your favorite hobbies but I will not engage myself in such activities if you don't mind.

Please present the proof then; you have been asked to before and have only produced the same sort of vague, accusatory articles that you just did again. I have no reason to accept your version of the facts without any evidence. That the Groningen Protocols exist is undisputed; that they allow what you claim they do is disputed, apparently by the people who wrote them. Is there some reason I should accept your word over there's?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Please present the proof then; you have been asked to before and have only produced the same sort of vague, accusatory articles that you just did again. I have no reason to accept your version of the facts without any evidence. That the Groningen Protocols exist is undisputed; that they allow what you claim they do is disputed, apparently by the people who wrote them. Is there some reason I should accept your word over there's?

Marauder in a previous post: " Instead you rely of some secret "Groninger Protocols" which seem to exist only in the mind of you and others who .... "

Marauder: " That the Groningen Protocols exist is undisputed; "

What made you change your mind so quickly ?

Originally posted by Nemesio
How can something without a brain have interests?

Where I come from, the fetus is not magically bestowed a brain at birth... how about you?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Please present the proof then; you have been asked to before and have only produced the same sort of vague, accusatory articles that you just did again. I have no reason to accept your version of the facts without any evidence. That the Groningen Protocols exist is undisputed; that they allow what you claim they do is disputed, apparently by the people who wrote them. Is there some reason I should accept your word over there's?

Marauder: "Please present the proof then"

Proof for what exactly ? For the fact that BORN handicapped children are being euthanised in the Netherlands ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Marauder in a previous post: " Instead you rely of some secret "Groninger Protocols" which seem to exist only in the mind of you and others who .... "

Marauder: " That the Groningen Protocols exist is undisputed; "

What made you change your mind so quickly ?[/b]

Ivanhoe, quoting people partially and out of context to deliberately create a false impression is the same as lying. Here's my quote not cut to pieces:

no1: We've been all through this; your claim concerning the "Groninger Protocols" is ludicrous as the only sites you've ever given which give details of the Groninger Protocols don't support your claims. Instead you rely of some secret "Groninger Protocols" which seem to exist only in the mind of you and others who want to adopt a Chicken Little approach.

The meaning is clear: 1) There are Groningen Protocols the details of which were given on some websites by the people who participated in making them;

but 2) You have invented a secret version that doesn't exist in the real world and continue to attack this "straw man". Notice I used quotes when referring to your version of the "Groningen Protocols" while omitting them otherwise.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you didn't read my post carefully though you have done the same thing on other ocasions. There is nothing inconsistent in my posts as you can clearly see when they are read in full context.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Marauder in a previous post: " Instead you rely of some secret "Groninger Protocols" which seem to exist only in the mind of you and others who .... "

Marauder: " That the Groningen Protocols exist is undisputed; "

What made you change your mind so quickly ?[/b]

I seem to recall a case published in the British Medical Journal where an infant was euthanised in Holland... I'll see if I can find the reference for you...

Originally posted by Halitose
I seem to recall a case published in the British Medical Journal where an infant was euthanised in Holland... I'll see if I can find the reference for you...

It must also be a case where the child was merely severely handicapped as it is Ivanhoe's claim that children who are severely handicapped are being euthanized. Don't give me a Schiavo-type case with an irreversible coma or no brain please.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Ivanhoe, quoting people partially and out of context to deliberately create a false impression is the same as lying. Here's my quote not cut to pieces:

no1: We've been all through this; your claim concerning the "Groninger Protocols" is ludicrous as the only sites you've ever given which give details of the Groninger Protocols don't suppor ...[text shortened]... e is nothing inconsistent in my posts as you can clearly see when they are read in full context.

You should be very carefull with your accusations, marauder. You have a very nasty habit of accusing people of lying.

Marauder: " .... to deliberately create a false impression is the same as lying. "


What exactly is that "false impression" and where did I create that ? Quotes please !

Originally posted by no1marauder
Ivanhoe, quoting people partially and out of context to deliberately create a false impression is the same as lying. Here's my quote not cut to pieces:

no1: We've been all through this; your claim concerning the "Groninger Protocols" is ludicrous as the only sites you've ever given which give details of the Groninger Protocols don't suppor ...[text shortened]... e is nothing inconsistent in my posts as you can clearly see when they are read in full context.

marauder: "but 2) You have invented a secret version that doesn't exist in the real world and continue to attack this "straw man".

..... and what might this "secret version" entail that I alledgedly have invented ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You should be very carefull with your accusations, marauder. You have a very nasty habit of accusing people of lying.

Marauder: " .... to deliberately create a false impression is the same as lying. "


What exactly is that "false impression" and where did I create that ? Quotes please !

Maybe you can take this discussion to another thread, since these protocols are about
post-term infants, not pre-term fetuses or embryos.

Ivanhoe, I hope you are working on your definition of 'individual.' I put out in good
faith.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Halitose
I seem to recall a case published in the British Medical Journal where an infant was euthanised in Holland... I'll see if I can find the reference for you...

Great. Thanks.

Originally posted by Halitose
Where I come from, the fetus is not magically bestowed a brain at birth... how about you?

I'll ask again: How can something without a brain have interests?