Originally posted by KingOnPointYou sound like your curiosity is severely restricted by your religiosity. Perhaps science is, slowly but surely, piecing together a truer picture of God's creation ~ truer and more real than the one ancient Hebrew mythologists were able to conceive of. Once again, why should all these brilliant, talented, inquisitive scientists ~ made in God's image, or so your religion tells you ~ stop exploring the reality of what you believe is God's created universe, and why should they simply settle for the pick-a-religion package of "answers" that you just so happen to have settled for?
...if men substitute unproven science for Godly claims, then they are against God to start with. They should not automatically use unproved/undemonstrated science to disagree with what is Godly.
Originally posted by KingOnPointI learnt about "creation" at school. I also learnt about science. If you want your children to learn about "creation", arrange for it, or do it yourself. No one is stopping you.
When education refuses to teach creation and substitutes unproved science as the educated beliefs for the universe and its inhabitants, then it means that the generally accepted way of "educated" people is to deny God and even not want God in their lives.
FMF Typed:
Once again, in what way does this relate to your assertion that "Jesus died for all people and provided a way for abundant life"?
=============
FMF,
Take what I typed below as a "general" way of why to believe in spiritual existence. Don't take it as a sole reason to believe in Christ.
=================
Kingonpoint typed:
Just as there are natural things that exist even though we don't see experience them with our brains, there can easily be spiritual things that exist which our brains do not experience. It doesn't take much faith to believe what we do experience. But it does take faith to believe what we don't experience.
However, it isn't faith that validates something's existence. Nor is it unbelief which invalidates something's existence. Natural things exist in spite of our brain's experiences. To discover the hidden thing by experiencing it does not make it existent. It exists regardless of our experience.
This is true in the natural world. So, why deny that it can easily be true for the spiritual world.
You and I have the ability to experience the natural world and make sense of it when we can use our 5 senses and brains. However, what about a blind person or a person blind and deaf? There blindness and deafness doesn't mean there is nothing to see and hear.
Originally posted by KingOnPointI don't believe there is any dilemma regarding this issue. I don't believe the claims you make about your God figure so I am unconcerned about whether you think your God figure is going to "accept" me or not.
If you, and I, and the "educated" people refuse God, why should He accept us?
Originally posted by FMFFMF,
I don't believe there is any dilemma regarding this issue. I don't believe the claims you make about your God figure so I am unconcerned about whether you think your God figure is going to "accept" me or not.
Then may God show you why to believe by faith for eternal life.
Originally posted by KingOnPointJust as there are natural things that exist even though we don't see experience them with our brains, there can easily be spiritual things that exist which our brains do not experience. It doesn't take much faith to believe what we do experience. But it does take faith to believe what we don't experience.
However, it isn't faith that validates something's existence. Nor is it unbelief which invalidates something's existence. Natural things exist in spite of our brain's experiences. To discover the hidden thing by experiencing it does not make it existent. It exists regardless of our experience.
This is true in the natural world. So, why deny that it can easily be true for the spiritual world.
You and I have the ability to experience the natural world and make sense of it when we can use our 5 senses and brains. However, what about a blind person or a person blind and deaf? There blindness and deafness doesn't mean there is nothing to see and hear.
Once again, you have not explained how all this relates to your assertion that "Jesus died for all people and provided a way for abundant life".
Originally posted by KingOnPointI am five decades into this finite and mortal life ~ half of which time was spent believing in the Christian God and in Jesus ~ and I have heard nothing credible that might be from God about any "eternal life". If you reckon you have, then good for you.
Then may God show you why to believe by faith for eternal life.
FMF Typed:
-------------
Once again, why should all these brilliant, talented, inquisitive scientists ~ made in God's image, or so your religion tells you ~ stop exploring the reality of what you believe is God's created universe, and why should they simply settle for the pick-a-religion package of "answers" that you just so happen to have settled for?
-------------
Because millions of people in the past on this earth who died, HAD to die without ever physically discovering the source of our universe and our existence as humans while they were humanly living.
Every human being is given 1 fallible human existence. That includes the many aborted unborn babies. Science offers you no knowledge of the spiritual existence. What science can offer is information on the natural existence. That is as good as it can do. And even then, science has made errors during history.
Why accept what you experience with 5 human senses as the only thing to experience in life that leaves you with consequences of your decisions.
Why take a man's word when that man doesn't want to be with God or have God in his life? That man's desire to not be with God can simply lead you astray.
What is more important to you?
To believe in only what you can prove yourself and demand that if you cannot prove it, then it doesn't exist and to take a chance that your soul can suffer eternally apart from God's experiential love and experiential presence OR to value your soul which hopefully according to your level of knowledge "might exist" and "might can have fellowship with God during an eternal spiritual continuation which continues after a physical human existence" which you can accept by faith.
Which do you desire most? No hope, or eternal hope? Your way, or what God may very much want for you?
------------------------
I don't remember the exact words but As for Jesus, He basically said to Nicodemus in the John Chapter 3:
....Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God
Or
....Except a man be born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God
Or
....Except a man be born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven
FMF Typed:
I am five decades into this finite and mortal life ~ half of which time was spent believing in the Christian God and in Jesus ~ and I have heard nothing credible that might be from God about any "eternal life". If you reckon you have, then good for you.
--------------
If you have believed in Christ Jesus then hold to your belief and don't forsake Christ. If you will, read the book of John in the bible.
To be honest with you, I have messed up my life so much. And I wonder if I am saved, but no matter what, I cannot depend on my own self for my salvation. The bible tells me Jesus is my hope. I am given the ability to believe as I want. I am not forced to believe in Christ. I need someone else to save me. Jesus is my hope for eternal life. My hope is certainly not, me. My hope is certainly not another human being equal to my plane of existence.
Originally posted by KingOnPointOnce again ~ I am beginning to wonder whether you are reading my posts ~ I believe there are spiritual things "to see" but I recognize that this is a subjective view on my part and I will not attempt to actually replace your subjectivity with mine
Why accept what you experience with 5 human senses as the only thing to experience in life that leaves you with consequences of your decisions.
Originally posted by KingOnPointI don't believe God has revealed Himself to you so every claim you make about Him ~ to me ~ is just information about your own religious beliefs, which appear to be pretty bog standard Christian beliefs, which I am already familiar with.
Why take a man's word when that man doesn't want to be with God or have God in his life? That man's desire to not be with God can simply lead you astray.
Originally posted by KingOnPointI think life is wonderful. I do not think "there must be more to life than this" ~ but I sympathize with you if you do feel the need to tell yourself that. I don't believe there is "eternal life". I think life's meaning is rooted in our mortality. I think immortality would makes life rather meaningless.
Which do you desire most? No hope, or eternal hope? Your way, or what God may very much want for you?
Originally posted by KingOnPointYou either believe this "natural existence" is God's creation or not. Why would you oppose or wish to downplay in any way the gathering of increasingly accurate and extensive information on "natural existence" if you believe the earth and the universe is God's work?
What science can offer is information on the natural existence.
Science offers you no knowledge of the spiritual existence.
Well, neither do you.
Originally posted by KingOnPointI think there is great spiritual value in what you share with us here.
In the holy bible it shows that Jesus said:
John 10: 10 (KJV)
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
and
John 10: 11, 9
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
I am the door: by me if any man enter ...[text shortened]... for abundant life. So, why would anyone deny what is NOT proven to be wrong by any human being?
For Christ to say He came that we may have ZOE (the divine life) means He came to live in us. This is the unusual nature of this One - He is able to enter into the innermost part of the human spiritual being.
He came to give Himself as divine life. So John tells us WHY he wrote this gospel - that we may have divine life in the name of Jesus.
"Moreover indeed many other signs also Jesus did before His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." (John 21:31)
"In His name" there means in His living Person, in Him as a realm, a sphere within we can enjoy divine ZOE life. That is God's life compounded into our natural created life.
I thought there was tremendous spiritual value in your little expounding on John 10.
FMF Typed:
----------------
You either believe this "natural existence" is God's creation or not. Why would you oppose or wish to downplay in any way the gathering of increasingly accurate and extensive information on "natural existence" if you believe the earth and the universe is God's work?
----------------
My concern is that scientists can take unproven things and try to make something of them that isn't proved. Do you think that science has proven cosmological origin and human origin?
Lastly, why do you not have faith in Christ?