Spirituality
27 Sep 16
06 Oct 16
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe addict sees her addiction is hurting her life but chooses instant gratification over a harder choice, so yes there is a maturity issue. But maturity is not binary - we all are more mature in some ways and less so in others, so the idea that addicts are immature is painting with too wide a brush.
Agree that it should not be classified as a "disease". FWIW, addiction might best be understood as a maturity issue rather than simply as a "choice". What do you think of this concept?
The question may be why is she behaving so immaturely in this case? I think at least part of the answer can be found from the rat park experiment. I should add that while environment is important, so are our expectations, our genetics, and the properties of the drug itself. There may be other factors involved too.
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06 Oct 16
What an addicted person needs is the power of the grace of Christ to overcome that weakness. That is why Jesus Christ came - to impart a overcoming divine life into the sinner which acts something like the power stearing of an automobile.
With CO - operation God operates to set us free from all manner of sins and failures.
So Paul told the Timothy to be empowered in the grace.
" You therefore, my child, be empowered in the grace which is in Christ Jesus." (2 Tim. 2:1)
The power in the empowering is actually a living Person who is available and supernatural and can blend and mingle with our being - Christ Jesus.
The power and empowering is in surrendering our soul to be united with the overcoming Victor Christ Jesus.
The benefit is the empowering to overcome the besetting sin. The price for the liberation is to surrender the throne of your life to Jesus Christ, taking Him by faith to be the new center in your heart.
We can take Him by calling "O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus."
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06 Oct 16
So the man who desires to be free from addiction should surrender his whole life to Jesus Christ.
Now I would hasten to add that to the same Timothy that Paul told to be empowered in the grace of Christ, he also advised him to see to some practical medical help. It was help in that day to take a little wine for his stomach ailments.
"No longer drink water only, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." (1 Timothy 5:23)
Paul was a very balanced servant of God. On one hand he exhorted Timothy to be empowered in the supernatural grace which the indwelling Christ could provide him. But he also instructed Timothy on some practical medical help as well.
He was not like a sensational TV evangelist of degraded Christianity. He didn't tell the man that he would send him a prayer cloth to give miraculous healing. He told him to "USE" ( not indulge himself in ) "a little wine". It would be good for killing germs in his stomach I suppose.
I add this because I know some skeptics will pounce immediately on the suggestion that the grace of Christ empowering negates all medical help.
No, for the sake of keeping one humble, God may not only render help vertically. He may require that you submit yourself to some ongoing medical assistance as well. You may do both if the need be. Pray for the turning over your your life to Christ so as to be empowered by His grace and take a little practical medical help as well.
You see, we fallen people are always experts as missing the point.
God wants us to submit our hearts to the Son of God that He may empower us. But He does not want us to use Him as a vending machine for "help" and walk away to run again our own lives apart from God. Therefore healing may be gradual.
You abide in Him. That means remain and linger in the sphere of His presence and influence. You remain in fellowship with this One who can come into our deepest spiritual part.
Paul says this ongoing cooperation is the practical working out of our daily salvation. This is abiding step by step with the Lord Jesus as God operates in us to liberate us from all kinds of things from the fallen humanity.
" So then, my beloved ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12,13)
The Christian co-operates and God operates. This, I said, is like power steering. With some cooperation with His moving us to live as Christ lives we are empowered in both the will and the action. We can do with Him what we could not do alone.
I like this much. Paul says to be empowered in the grace. Peter tells us to STAND firm in this grace. That means linger and remain in this realm of divine empowering.
" ... exhorting and testifying fully that this is the true grace of God; enter into this grace and stand in it." ( 1 Pet. 5:12b)
Here's my song on this passage: (just the guitar and vocal)
https://soundcloud.com/jack-wilmore/enter-into-this-grace-1-pet-5129
06 Oct 16
You're argument isn't very sound.
But maturity is not binary - we all are more mature in some ways and less so in others, so the idea that addicts are immature is painting with too wide a brush.
First of all, this is a straw man. Reread what I actually wrote and compare it to what you've written here.
Second of all, consider the case of a teen or young adult who kicks and screams like a four year old when he doesn't get his way. Would you similarly dismiss the idea that it's a maturity issue by saying "we all are more mature in some ways and less so in others". It's an absurd argument.
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06 Oct 16
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneMust not engage with ThinkOfOne in the forums, must not engage with ThinkOfOne in the forums.
You're argument isn't very sound.
[b] But maturity is not binary - we all are more mature in some ways and less so in others, so the idea that addicts are immature is painting with too wide a brush.
First of all, this is a straw man. Reread what I actually wrote and compare it to what you've written here.
Second of all, consider the case of a ...[text shortened]... by saying "we all are more mature in some ways and less so in others". It's an absurd argument.[/b]
😞
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI have tried to explain the nature of addiction to you in this thread, but you appear unable or unwilling to accept that explanation, instead choosing to cleave to your own, unrealistic and patently false view of the condition. You are fortunate in that you have clearly never been close to an addict, or suffered so yourself, and I sincerely hope that you remain so lucky in this regard throughout the rest of your life.
A guy that suffers from cancer can't decide to stop having the symptoms of cancer because cancer is a desease. An alcoholic on the other hand can decide to never have a drink again. A person that doesn't drink can't technically be called an alcoholic, according to the dictionary definition of 'alcoholic'.
The statement "A person that doesn't drink can't technically be called an alcoholic" is not true, however. Many alcoholics don't drink. Some of them may never drink again, if they are lucky and their life conditions permit them to remain strong. Perhaps one day you will get to speak to an alcoholic who doesn't drink. If you choose to listen to them, maybe they will be able to explain to you the nature of alcoholism, and maybe you will then understand that simply not drinking again does nothing to remove the affliction.
07 Oct 16
originally posted by ThinkOfOne
First of all, this is a straw man. Reread what I actually wrote and compare it to what you've written here.
Explain yourself.
Second of all, consider the case of a teen or young adult who kicks and screams like a four year old when he doesn't get his way.
I imagine Bill Gates or your favorite diva kicking and screaming when they didn't get their way - does that mean they had no maturity at all at any level about anything?
Would you similarly dismiss the idea that it's a maturity issue by saying "we all are more mature in some ways and less so in others".
I agreed the maturity issue is involved.
It's an absurd argument.
Projection.
07 Oct 16
the site posted by tw says that
Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (e.g., alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (e.g., gambling, sex, shopping) that can be pleasurable but the continued use/act of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work, relationships, or health.
Okay. So if you stop drinking, it follows that you aren't addicted anymore.
Also, learn to control the habit so that it doesn't interfere with life and you are no longer addicted.
Also, since people can and do learn to control or quit their addiction, it follows that they were never under 'compulsion' at all.
Hi, twhitehead! Google ostrich head in sand, set image to your desktop.
07 Oct 16
Originally posted by apathistThat is in incomplete description of addiction. It is notable that you failed to give the reference (hoping that nobody would look it up) and failed to quote the full description on the site.
the site posted by tw says thatAddiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (e.g., alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (e.g., gambling, sex, shopping) that can be pleasurable but the continued use/act of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work, relationsh ...[text shortened]... or health.
Okay. So if you stop drinking, it follows that you aren't addicted anymore.
Read it again:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/addiction
07 Oct 16
Originally posted by twhiteheadSo what is missing from the description from your site that I posted such that it opposes my conclusion and supports yours?
That is in incomplete description of addiction. ...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/addiction
Do some work here, make a case. I found your site to be sympathetic to my position.
Originally posted by apathistExplain yourself.
originally posted by [b]ThinkOfOne
First of all, this is a straw man. Reread what I actually wrote and compare it to what you've written here.
Explain yourself.
Second of all, consider the case of a teen or young adult who kicks and screams like a four year old when he doesn't get his way.
I imagine Bill Gates or your favorit ...[text shortened]... ".[/b]
I agreed the maturity issue is involved.
It's an absurd argument.
Projection.[/b]
Let's look at what I actually wrote:
"addiction might best be understood as a maturity issue rather than simply as a 'choice'".
This is speaking of addiction itself, not of the addict.
Let's look at some of what you've written:
"the idea that addicts are immature is painting with too wide a brush"
I never made this claim or anything remotely approaching it. It's your brush, not mine.
"does that mean they had no maturity at all at any level about anything?".
I never made this claim or anything remotely approaching it.
Let's look at a definition of "straw man" from wiki:
"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent"
Do you understand now? You were incapable of figuring this out by rereading what I wrote and comparing it to what you wrote?
Originally posted by apathist
So what is missing from the description from your site that I posted such that it opposes my conclusion and supports yours?
Do some work here, make a case.
The word addiction is used in several different ways. One definition describes physical addiction. This is a biological state in which the body adapts to the presence of a drug so that drug no longer has the same effect, otherwise known as a tolerance. Another form of physical addiction is the phenomenon of overreaction by the brain to drugs (or to cues associated with the drugs). An alcoholic walking into a bar, for instance, will feel an extra pull to have a drink because of these cues.
I found your site to be sympathetic to my position.
Because you cherry picked.