1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    07 Sep '09 20:16
    ALL salvation IS by grace either directly or indirectly. We cannot "attain" eternal life unless it is given to us. We are not eternal. He is. Unless He gives life to us via an act of grace how can we "get" it. We can't even create ourselves or control our ageing process , how can we become eternal on our own without grace?

    We can work at it and work with God but the process is always initiated by God. Any compassion or goodness that forms within us does so because it springs from God as it's source. Sure enough we play our part and make choices to live this way or that , but those choices would not even come our way if it were not for grace. Infact , we wouldn't even exist without grace.

    If we think our righteousness belongs solely to us then we are fools. It's God who puts his righteousness in us (with our participation). We may look down on others who are "less righteous" (supposedly) and wonder why God may grant an unrighteous man salvation , but if we judge like this we have not understood that utlimately our own righteousness does not really "belong" to us anyway. We have borrowed it from God.
  2. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    07 Sep '09 22:01
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    ALL salvation IS by grace either directly or indirectly. We cannot "attain" eternal life unless it is given to us. We are not eternal. He is. Unless He gives life to us via an act of grace how can we "get" it. We can't even create ourselves or control our ageing process , how can we become eternal on our own without grace?

    We can work at it and wor ...[text shortened]... n righteousness does not really "belong" to us anyway. We have borrowed it from God.
    Your concept of 'salvation' is fatally flawed.
  3. England
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    08 Sep '09 09:00
    flawed maybe... fatally??
    yes its true grace will forgive our human ways, but it is our human ways that will cause the scales
  4. Cape Town
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    08 Sep '09 10:09
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    ALL salvation IS by grace either directly or indirectly. We cannot "attain" eternal life unless it is given to us.
    What is this 'you' that will attain eternal life? Is it your consciousness as continued from your point of death?

    Why do you want eternal life?

    Do you think that doing good is something you would do even if there was no promise of reward? ie is eternal life your primary motivation?

    Infact , we wouldn't even exist without grace.
    The ants in my garden wouldn't exist without grace (ie I choose not to wipe them out). But I am not sure what your real point is.

    If we think our righteousness belongs solely to us then we are fools. It's God who puts his righteousness in us (with our participation). We may look down on others who are "less righteous" (supposedly) and wonder why God may grant an unrighteous man salvation , but if we judge like this we have not understood that utlimately our own righteousness does not really "belong" to us anyway. We have borrowed it from God.
    In other words you want everyone to have as low self esteem as you apparently do.
    Is all the bad things in us 'of the devil'.
    Do we own anything?
    Doesn't this argument of yours rather contradict your views on free will? Oh yes, I remember now, your views on free will were self contradictory anyway. As I recall you reckoned that we make decisions using a part of us that is from God, thus God makes our decisions for us but we own them when they go bad and God gets the credit when they are good.
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    08 Sep '09 19:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    What is this 'you' that will attain eternal life? Is it your consciousness as continued from your point of death?

    Why do you want eternal life?

    Do you think that doing good is something you would do even if there was no promise of reward? ie is eternal life your primary motivation?

    [b]Infact , we wouldn't even exist without grace.

    The ants ...[text shortened]... for us but we own them when they go bad and God gets the credit when they are good.[/b]
    Is there any partivcular point you want me to address first ? You have asked at least 3 separate questions. Maybe if you could prioritise one of them?

    My point is that we can get credit for righteous choices but God helps us to make those choices. For example , if we act courageously to break up a fight where a man is being beaten and put ourselves in danger the process will go something like this.....

    God will prompt us to do something via our conscience and we choose to go with that choice. God then gives us courage and wisdom in that situation. So we do infact get credit for participating in the process but the power and prompting to do good is supplied by God. It's a bit like helping someone make a meal but they supply all the ingredients. We can make a meal but we must recognise that the meal does not stem from us. But we can humbly participate in the making of the meal and God will credit this to us

    Our righteousness is our own but it can only become ours if we at first recognise that we are not the source. Like many things in Christianity it seems paradoxical to the world because our ego cannot stand the idea that we are just channels for righteousness.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    08 Sep '09 19:20
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Your concept of 'salvation' is fatally flawed.
    ...what's the point of saying something like this with no explanation? Are you too lazy to say anything else ?
  7. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    08 Sep '09 19:32
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    ...what's the point of saying something like this with no explanation? Are you too lazy to say anything else ?
    Lazy sums it up well.

    You cling to the childish notion that 'salvation' comes in an afterlife where you live forever. Nonsense. Salvation is available in this world, during this finite life. Works are the only means of attaining it. Faith is worthless.
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    08 Sep '09 21:193 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Lazy sums it up well.

    You cling to the childish notion that 'salvation' comes in an afterlife where you live forever. Nonsense. Salvation is available in this world, during this finite life. Works are the only means of attaining it. Faith is worthless.
    I agree that salvation is not just some mystical afterlife thing.

    However, since you obviously hold dear certain values and live by beliefs which you cannot prove to be true but live by them anyway , then your faith must be worth something.

    It seems sooo silly to say "faith is worthless" because none of us know for sure what the true nature of reality is nor whether the universe/existence is moral or ammoral. It seems logical then that we are all resigned to have a faith of sorts in some world view or other - the only alternative would be to abandon any stake in life at all.

    Basically we all "pay our money and takes our pick" based on what we feel/think is the truth and what we are exposed to. You have faith already but you probably just don't realise it or recognise it.

    By all means disagree with what I have faith in but cannot prove , but don't kid yourself that you are that different from me because the process is the same for both of us. We are both journeying on our existential struggle to make sense of the world whilst not knowing with any certainty what this life really is. You have your faith , I have mine - to say "faith is worthless" in such a throw away manner is pretty lazy.
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    08 Sep '09 21:49
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    ...
    My point is that we can get credit for righteous choices but God helps us to make those choices....
    And what of the people that God does not help?
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    08 Sep '09 23:07
    Originally posted by Badwater
    And what of the people that God does not help?
    God will help anyone who wants to make that choice.

    Did you have any particular examples in mind? I'm not personally aware of any individuals who are never in the position of making any choices between right and wrong (excluding very young children and babies). What are you getting at here?
  11. Account suspended
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    08 Sep '09 23:15
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    ...what's the point of saying something like this with no explanation? Are you too lazy to say anything else ?
    he does not need to justify his stance like us lesser mortals, he is Ming the merciless, he just decrees and it is!
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    08 Sep '09 23:41
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    he does not need to justify his stance like us lesser mortals, he is Ming the merciless, he just decrees and it is!
    All humans are equal.
  13. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    08 Sep '09 23:53
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I agree that salvation is not just some mystical afterlife thing.

    However, since you obviously hold dear certain values and live by beliefs which you cannot prove to be true but live by them anyway , then your faith must be worth something.

    It seems sooo silly to say "faith is worthless" because none of us know for sure what the true nature of ...[text shortened]... , I have mine - to say "faith is worthless" in such a throw away manner is pretty lazy.
    It's odd that of all the things in my post that you would pick on that one exclusively.

    But what do you presume I have faith in? I would say that you are mistaken. Unless it's something trivial, like having faith that the Tigers will win the World Series.
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    09 Sep '09 00:03
    Originally posted by rwingett
    It's odd that of all the things in my post that you would pick on that one exclusively.

    But what do you presume I have faith in? I would say that you are mistaken. Unless it's something trivial, like having faith that the Tigers will win the World Series.
    "He who is not with Me is against Me" (Jesus)
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    09 Sep '09 00:16
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    God will help anyone who wants to make that choice...
    Not everyone can make that choice, that's what I'm driving at, and it has much more to do than with just babies and young children. The statement is as myopic as the perspective. Your expressed idea of God cannot possibly universally fit all persons! Do you really need for me to list each and every exception to your statement?

    So again, what of the people God Cannot help? What of those who cannot make a choice? Where is God for them?
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