WE all have faith in something. When we hit that light switch in the morning! We know or assume that the flow of electrons are going to get to that light bulb. Drive that car to work and not get killed because all of the traffic lights work. An object is not going to fall out of the sky & kill us! When we plan that BBQ or vacation there is a certain amount of faith exercised that we will be able to do it even though it's future.
Manny
Originally posted by knightmeisterThe questions regarding who gets eternal life, you can ignore or start a new thread as they are really a separate topic. I honestly don't expect you to answer them as in all my previous attempts on this forum I have never had a satisfactory answer.
Is there any partivcular point you want me to address first ? You have asked at least 3 separate questions. Maybe if you could prioritise one of them?
My point is that we can get credit for righteous choices but God helps us to make those choices.
Here is my main question: who makes the choices when we make unrighteous choices, and who chooses whether to make righteous or unrighteous choices?
Like many things in Christianity it seems paradoxical to the world because our ego cannot stand the idea that we are just channels for righteousness.
Seems more to me that you just suffer from very low self esteem.
Regarding the whole reduction of everything to salvation by grace, how is this analogy: A student is given a test which they must pass in order to get to the next grade. It is by the grace of the school governing body that the test has been set and the initial opportunity given, so once could say that ultimately the student only passes by grace, and any place obtained was by grace, but there was a test in there somewhere wasn't there? If there wasn't then surely every student will pass. If there is no test, then why do some people apparently get eternal life and some don't? Or is God a little unfair and just chooses randomly or by some preset criteria?
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo now we need a new terminology.
God will help anyone who wants to make that choice.
Prechoice: the desire to make a choice.
So someone wants to make a choice, but the actual choice is made by God, and thus God gets the credit. However, it seems that anyone who prechooses righteously is assisted by God in making the righteous choice and anyone who prechooses unrighteously is not assisted by God. Who does assist the unrighteous prechooser with his choice is unknown at this time, but since he invariably chooses unrighteously we must a assume that whoever does make that choice is either naturally evil (the devil perhaps) or simply incapable in some way of making righteous choices.
Whatever the case, the actual deciding factor is invariably the prechoice so why is what God does (or assists with) called 'choice' as it is predecided?
Originally posted by twhiteheadSo someone wants to make a choice, but the actual choice is made by God
So now we need a new terminology.
Prechoice: the desire to make a choice.
So someone wants to make a choice, but the actual choice is made by God, and thus God gets the credit. However, it seems that anyone who prechooses righteously is assisted by God in making the righteous choice and anyone who prechooses unrighteously is not assisted by God. Who doe ...[text shortened]... y the prechoice so why is what God does (or assists with) called 'choice' as it is predecided?
----------------------whitey----------------------
Why do you twist my words? I never said that God makes the actual choice. I said that God helps us. It's a two way process but God does not make the choice for us , nor have I ever said so.
We have a big part to play in the whole process but the process happens initially because of the grace of God.
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadHere is my main question: who makes the choices when we make unrighteous choices, and who chooses whether to make righteous or unrighteous choices?
The questions regarding who gets eternal life, you can ignore or start a new thread as they are really a separate topic. I honestly don't expect you to answer them as in all my previous attempts on this forum I have never had a satisfactory answer.
[b]My point is that we can get credit for righteous choices but God helps us to make those choices.
some don't? Or is God a little unfair and just chooses randomly or by some preset criteria?[/b]
------------------------------whitey-------------------------
We choose both. We are a mixture of good and evil trying to pull us in the opposite directions. One force wins out within us and which force wins has an awful lot to do with which one we give in to at any one time.
For example , when we choose to love instead of hate , God gives us the strength to do it. He helps us . He first prompts us to follow the right course of action (we then respond) He then fills us with love and compassion. We work with him , like St Paul said , we become "co -creators with God"
I do not say that we do not have a role in our salvation. I'm just saying that the role we have is a gift to us from God. We can work out our salvation via righteousness but even the righteousness we develop within ourselves cannot be attained without grace. What I'm tryign to point out is that throwing out the idea of grace is a very grave mistake becuase it causes men to think of themselves as the source of their own righteousness rather then just a channel of THE source.
The essence of Christianity is to make us aware that man has set himself up by himself and forgotten that he is created. He behaves as if what he has is his own. This is an illusion. We must never think that we can somehow rest upon our own righteousness because that's the same as a little boy offering his Father some of his pocket money and expecting it to be seen as his own money that he earned. Sure enough , any gracious father would accept such an offering , but if the little boy has actually forgotten that the money actually came from his father as a gift then something has gone wrong.
We cannot expect or demand of God salvation based on our own righteousness because our righteousness would not exist apart from grace.
Originally posted by knightmeisterActually all that crap comes from adrenaline. Wait...that means you worship a chemical. I'm having an epiphany! All christians are drugies! Thats why they have no logic...
Is there any partivcular point you want me to address first ? You have asked at least 3 separate questions. Maybe if you could prioritise one of them?
My point is that we can get credit for righteous choices but God helps us to make those choices. For example , if we act courageously to break up a fight where a man is being beaten and put ourselves ...[text shortened]... to the world because our ego cannot stand the idea that we are just channels for righteousness.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd here is the heart of your folly. You have a point to make and will make up any amount of nonsense to try and support your point. The problem is that nobody will take your point to heart because it comes on the back of nonsense.
I do not say that we do not have a role in our salvation. I'm just saying that the role we have is a gift to us from God. We can work out our salvation via righteousness but even the righteousness we develop within ourselves cannot be attained without grace. What I'm tryign to point out is that throwing out the idea of grace is a very grave mistake bec ...[text shortened]... hemselves as the source of their own righteousness rather then just a channel of THE source.
I notice thought that you have shied away from telling me who 'helps out' when I make an unrighteous decision. Who is it that fills my heart with hate and evil thoughts the moment I start down the wrong path? If God can take all the credit for my righteous choices can I offload the guilt and punishment for my unrighteous choices to this as yet unnamed entity?
The basic flaw in your whole argument is that if I cannot claim credit for my righteousness, then neither can God place blame on me for my unrighteousness. You cannot have it both ways.