All salvation is by grace...

Originally posted by PinkFloyd

...

2. They ARE good enough for ME.

"Hey, if that's what you or anyone else wants to do, then great; but you spiritually pluck out your own eyes in order that you do not see and can maintain your own false pretense."

Originally posted by knightmeister
So what do you want whitey - grown up food or this baby milk nonsense? Away with these strawmen!

Although LemonJello has already hit the nail on the head, I would like to see you explain a few things:
1. You are yet to tell us who is the source of our unrighteous decisions and who helps us carry them out.
2. If we are incapable of doing something, then we neither claim credit nor take blame for that action. It is your contention that certain actions are impossible without Gods help. So if we isolate our part in any actions or choices, then can we rightly take credit for those?
3. Why is it so important to you to point out Gods part in anything we do? Do you see the fact that the world around us including the atoms of our bodies also take part in our choices and actions as equally important?

Originally posted by Badwater
Read my post(s). It is demonstrably not so; just because you utter the words "God takes care of them" does not mean it happens. You have addressed no point that I have raised.

Oh I read them. And then I addressed them. The fact that you choose not to believe/agree with them is incidental to the fact that they were addressed.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Oh I read them. And then I addressed them. The fact that you choose not to believe/agree with them is incidental to the fact that they [b] were addressed.[/b]

No, you haven't. You claim that God allows all to make choices (the original argument) and that God helps all, and have offered nothing to back it up. You've therefore addressed nothing.

I, on the other hand, say that God does not help all, that not all have a choice, and offered an example. I can offer other examples. You've offered nothing to back your claim.

Thus, my quote paraphrased just for you: "Hey, if that's what you or anyone else wants to [believe], then great; but you spiritually pluck out your own eyes in order that you do not see and can maintain your own false pretense."

Originally posted by twhitehead
Although LemonJello has already hit the nail on the head, I would like to see you explain a few things:
1. You are yet to tell us who is the source of our unrighteous decisions and who helps us carry them out.
2. If we are incapable of doing something, then we neither claim credit nor take blame for that action. It is your contention that certain action ...[text shortened]... ncluding the atoms of our bodies also take part in our choices and actions as equally important?

1. You are yet to tell us who is the source of our unrighteous decisions and who helps us carry them out.

2. If we are incapable of doing something, then we neither claim credit nor take blame for that action. It is your contention that certain actions are impossible without Gods help. So if we isolate our part in any actions or choices, then can we rightly take credit for those?

3. Why is it so important to you to point out Gods part in anything we do? Do you see the fact that the world around us including the atoms of our bodies also take part in our choices and actions as equally important?

-------------whitey----------------------

1. Satan , although him "helping" us is not really accurate. He is not really interested in helping us other than to lead us astray.

2. We can indeed take credit for our part in those actions and I have never said we couldn't. The problem comes if we take credit "in isolation" such a concept is an illusion. It's like a soccer player taking credit for a headed goal "in isolation" , forgetting that the cross from the winger is an integral part of that goal. Infact , any football fan knows that some great crosses virtually make the goal.

3. It's important because if we believe in God at all that's the way it has to be. I started this thread mainly as a response to the likes of Rakj and ToOne etc who seem to think that their own righteousness can be achieved without grace. The interest from Atheists was unexpected.

Even taking God out of the equation , I believe it's a fundamental flaw in human nature to think in isolated and fragmented ways. We could be seen as under the grace of nature or "the life force" . Either way , God or no God we still seem to behave as if we are isolated from nature itself and as if we somehow created ourselves. Concepts of grace undermine human arrogance and egotism which ultimately come about because we have isolated ourselves and forgotten that life is an immense gift.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Although LemonJello has already hit the nail on the head, I would like to see you explain a few things:
1. You are yet to tell us who is the source of our unrighteous decisions and who helps us carry them out.
2. If we are incapable of doing something, then we neither claim credit nor take blame for that action. It is your contention that certain action ...[text shortened]... ncluding the atoms of our bodies also take part in our choices and actions as equally important?

There are several forces at play in life: the world, our flesh, the devil,
and God. Our choices, our desires, our attitudes color everything we
see and do and with that we will justify or condemn, truth in its purest
form will hold us accountable for that which we are responsible for as
we should be.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
Sorry, but I am confused what any of this has to do with 'grace'. Please clarify what you mean by 'grace'. I was under the impression that in theological context it is tied to bestowment that is explicitly unmerited. You don't seem to be respecting this notional boundary.

In fact, you seem to want to couple the word to just about anything wil ling of such things? And what would that mean anyhow? Please clarify.

My newborn baby cannot ''attain" proper nutrition unless it is given to him; he would just wither away if left to his own devices. So my providing my newborn with proper care and nutrition is somehow a matter of grace on my part? Of course not: I have obligation to attend to his needs. So, the fact that one cannot "attain" something unless it is given to him doesn't have anything necessarily to do with grace.
-----------------------------lemon-----------------------------

So lemon , you feel that God is obliged somehow to create you , give you a planet to live on and also give you the possibility of eternal life? You feel that there is something about you that merits all this? You sound as if God is somehow obligated to create you and cover you in glory? What is it in you that merits this? What have any of us done to merit being created? Unless you can say what it is that merits God creating you then , by implication, your life must be an unmerited gift from God to you. It's an act of grace. You cannot earn it or merit it , but it's yours. Given to you. That's grace ! Wakey wakey Lemon. It's so blindingly and simply obvious, it's your egotistical righteous idignation that stops you from seeing this.



BTW- Not all babies are as lucky as yours. I am grateful that I had decent loving parents , I do not take my good upbringing for granted. I hope your child shows some gratitude to you in later life. I hope he isn't an ungrateful little sod.

KM: I started this thread mainly as a response to the likes of Rakj and ToOne etc who seem to think that their own righteousness can be achieved without grace.

Evidently Satan continues to lead KM astray. KM still seems to have no reservations about misrepresenting the position of others even though he has been repeatedly corrected.

To once again set the record straight and state my position:
My position is about what Jesus teaches. Jesus teaches that to have "salvation" / "eternal life" / "heaven" one must become righteous, i.e., follow His commandments.

For whatever reason, KM tries to twist my position and make it about me. It's not. It's about what Jesus teaches, period.

Originally posted by knightmeister
My newborn baby cannot ''attain" proper nutrition unless it is given to him; he would just wither away if left to his own devices. So my providing my newborn with proper care and nutrition is somehow a matter of grace on my part? Of course not: I have obligation to attend to his needs. So, the fact that one cannot "attain" something unless it is given shows some gratitude to you in later life. I hope he isn't an ungrateful little sod.

So lemon , you feel that God is obliged somehow to create you , give you a planet to live on and also give you the possibility of eternal life? You feel that there is something about you that merits all this? You sound as if God is somehow obligated to create you and cover you in glory? What is it in you that merits this? What have any of us done to merit being created?

Did I imply any of this? No I didn't. In fact, I thought I hinted that I think something like our merely existing (or having been created into existence) is not merit-apt at all.

Unless you can say what it is that merits God creating you then , by implication, your life must be an unmerited gift from God to you.

What don't you understand about my thinking that such things aren't merit-apt? That means I think it neither makes sense to say such things are "merited" nor does it make sense to say they are "unmerited". If you want to say that then it is not the case that such things are "merited", then fine, but that's pretty trivial. It's also not the case that they are "unmerited" in the explicit sense of 'grace' taken in theological context. What don't you understand about this?

Seriously, look up the notion of 'grace' as it relates to theological context. Then tell me what any of the crap you've brought up in this thread has to do with it (if anything).

Not all babies are as lucky as yours. I am grateful that I had decent loving parents , I do not take my good upbringing for granted. I hope your child shows some gratitude to you in later life.

If your point is just that I should be grateful for the life God has given me (supposing he created us), then okay. Whatever. Maybe you can make some case for the subject of gratitude. But what does that have to do with the subject of 'grace'?

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]So lemon , you feel that God is obliged somehow to create you , give you a planet to live on and also give you the possibility of eternal life? You feel that there is something about you that merits all this? You sound as if God is somehow obligated to create you and cover you in glory? What is it in you that merits this? What have any of us done to m t of gratitude. But what does that have to do with the subject of 'grace'?

"In Christianity, grace is "unmerited favor" from God. Divine grace is a description of the character of God, which is displayed by God's gifts to humanity. Grace describes the means by which humans are granted salvation[1]"

-----------Wikipedia----------------------------

Since you cannot say that you deserve to exist then your life itself is a gift from God to you. You do not merit being alive but are alive. Presumably that's quite a good sign of being favoured by God. I happen to think that being given the chance to exist is a reasonable sign of God's favour and since I cannot say I deserve to live (because I have merited it in some way) then I think the term "unmerited favour" is quite apt.

Refering to God's "gifts to humanity" - well being created in the first place is a gift do you not think? So again , the term grace seems very apt indeed.

We are granted salvation via grace , but it is by his favour and graciousness that we even get a chance at it.

Grace is very clearly connected with free acts of God's love given as gifts to man. God gives us life , strength , salvation , righteousness etc . I see no problem with connecting these concepts with the term grace.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]So lemon , you feel that God is obliged somehow to create you , give you a planet to live on and also give you the possibility of eternal life? You feel that there is something about you that merits all this? You sound as if God is somehow obligated to create you and cover you in glory? What is it in you that merits this? What have any of us done to m t of gratitude. But what does that have to do with the subject of 'grace'?

I think it neither makes sense to say such things are "merited" nor does it make sense to say they are "unmerited".

---------------------lemon-------------------

So the fact that God has given you life itself is not a gift from God to you? Surely , if it is a gift then it cannot be a neutral thing. In Christianity you can't just say that you just happen to exist and it's neither here not there. You exist because God wills it out of his heart of love. It's a gift to you , a precious gift. It's a sign of God's graciousness. If he does not condescend some form of life from himself to this material world then you would not exist.

You say that this gift is neither merited nor unmerited. I presume you mean that we do not deserve life but neither is it undeserved. I understand this ,but this alone does not make God's gift to you any less an act of grace because God brings you into existence with no obligation to do so and no reason to do so other than his love and graciousness.

If I give a fiver to a homeless man he says "thanking you kindly sir , that's very gracious of you" . My act of kindness and giving does not have to be unmerited to be a gracious act.

Originally posted by knightmeister
"In Christianity, grace is "unmerited favor" from God. Divine grace is a description of the character of God, which is displayed by God's gifts to humanity. Grace describes the means by which humans are granted salvation[1]"

-----------Wikipedia----------------------------

Since you cannot say that you deserve to exist then your life itself is a eousness etc . I see no problem with connecting these concepts with the term grace.

Since you cannot say that you deserve to exist then your life itself is a gift from God to you.

No, that doesn't follow. I think calling one's existence itself a 'gift' to the one who exists is just a bizarre use of the word. A gift is typically offered to a potential recipient, where the recipient of course already exists and where the potentiality is just in reference to whether or not acceptance of the gift eventuates. Who exactly was the potential recipient to the "gift" of one's existence? See, I don't think that usage makes much sense. Of course, there are other ways to use the word 'gift'. For instance, we say that one can be "gifted" (or possesses gifts) regarding natural talents (for example). This doesn't require any offering or acceptance but rather just has to do with acknowledging and/or being grateful for propitious articles of the natural lottery. Perhaps this is how you are using the word. But what's that got to do with grace?

I happen to think that being given the chance to exist is a reasonable sign of God's favour and since I cannot say I deserve to live (because I have merited it in some way) then I think the term "unmerited favour" is quite apt.

Well, I don't. But, regardless, let me reiterate my point. My point is just that you are not being all that faithful to the basic conception of 'divine grace'. I see you didn't actually bother to understand the sense of "unmerited" employed in your wiki article. For instance, it quotes JI Packer to show what it is actually driving at: "What is grace? In the New Testament grace means God’s love in action toward men who merited the opposite of love…." Regardless of whether you endorse Packer's characterization in substance, it serves to make the point regarding "unmerited". Being "unmerited" in this sense is not merely satisfied by its not being the case that it was merited (such as could be satisfied even in cases in which the thing is not merit-apt at all). Rather, grace in this sense represents bestowment against the grain of what was actually merited (such as could NOT be satisfied in cases in which the thing is not merit-apt at all). One central point of 'divine grace' is that such acts are supposed to turn upside down first-order intuitions regarding desert and merit. You seem to recognize this on some level, but you cannot help just using the word willy-nilly and even attaching it to things that don't seem merit-apt at all.

If I give a fiver to a homeless man he says "thanking you kindly sir , that's very gracious of you" . My act of kindness and giving does not have to be unmerited to be a gracious act.

Well, of course we can use 'grace' and 'gracious' in such ways, as it commonly enough done in practice. That doesn't have anything to do with my point (see above).

This example also serves to underscore the incoherence of your mere existence as a matter of grace idea. You can bestow kindness or all manner of other things on a homeless person. But what could it mean for you (or God for that matter) to bestow something upon a nonexistent?

Originally posted by Badwater
No, you haven't. You claim that God allows all to make choices (the original argument) and that God helps all, and have offered nothing to back it up. You've therefore addressed nothing.

I, on the other hand, say that God does not help all, that not all have a choice, and offered an example. I can offer other examples. You've offered nothing to back your ...[text shortened]... out your own eyes in order that you do not see and can maintain your own false pretense."

A peculiar take on God. It's certainly unique, at least to me--I've never heard it before.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Since you cannot say that you deserve to exist then your life itself is a gift from God to you.

No, that doesn't follow. I think calling one's existence itself a 'gift' to the one who exists is just a bizarre use of the word. A gift is typically offered to a potential recipient, where the recipient of course already exists and where the potent ...[text shortened]... or that matter) to bestow something upon a nonexistent?[/b]

Technically the word unmerited favour cannot be said to mean ONLY " favour placed towards someone who deserves not favour but punishment" it can also refer to NEUTRAL circumstances when someone is show favour when they actually don't merit it. For an act to be unmerited all that is required is an ABSENCE of merit. It does not require the OPPOSITE of merit.

Of course , acts of favour towards individuals who deserve the opposite automatically seem more an act of graciousness or grace.

For example , St Paul was a persecutor or Christ so God's grace and favour to him seems more like an "act of grace" to us because Paul (or Saul) could have been punished. However , Peter (although he made mistakes) did Ok and did try to follow Christ. God's grace to Peter is more from a NEUTRAL starting point.

But in both these examples God's grace was unmerited. Just because the grace towards Paul was very unmerited does not mean that Peter was not also favoured by God's grace.

To me the word "unmerited" just means that there is an absence of merit. It DOES NOT HAVE TO MEAN that the individual has to be morally bankrupt. It's just that we notice God's grace more in those cases.

It's the same in human interaction. One man can bestow a gift upon another (financially , time , emotionally etc). Sometimes we are gracious to others when actually we could be forgiven for giving them a slapping. At other times we are just nice to them from a neutral position (ie it is unmerited)

Just because one act is more gracious than the other doesn't make one of them grace and the other not grace. It's just that one of them seems more loving and gracious than the other. One act of gracious kindness is very unmerited and the other is just unmerited.

There are three basic positions
1) A man who one feels merits God's favour.
2) A man who neither deserves merit but neither deserves punishmnet either
3) The man who deserves punishment

Both 2 + 3 are men who could receive favour from God but could also be technicaly and accurately said to have not merited it. Man 1 is the only man who merits favour. By defnition the other 2 don't. Just because man 2 hasn't done anything wrong doesn't mean that the grace bestowed upon him is merited , because in order to merit something you ahve to earn it , and man 2 hasn't.

Are you really saying that God can only bestow unmerited grace on those who are bad , unrighteous and deserving of punishment? If that were true his grace would be pretty limited. He would be unable to show unmerited favour to anyone who was doing "ok". Does God have to wait for us to do awful things before he can show favour towards us?

Whne your child grows up you will understand this. Sometimes you will be kind to him even when he has been a little sod to you. And at other times you will be kind to him just because you love him and for no other reason. He will not have earned it , you will just love him.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Since you cannot say that you deserve to exist then your life itself is a gift from God to you.

No, that doesn't follow. I think calling one's existence itself a 'gift' to the one who exists is just a bizarre use of the word. A gift is typically offered to a potential recipient, where the recipient of course already exists and where the potent ...[text shortened]... or that matter) to bestow something upon a nonexistent?[/b]

But what could it mean for you (or God for that matter) to bestow something upon a nonexistent?
----------------Lemon--------------------


😀 I've already done it! I became a Father! Life was my gift to him. (Although as it turned out he was just as much a gift to me)

Ny son was a non-existent once!