All salvation is by grace...

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]KM: I started this thread mainly as a response to the likes of Rakj and ToOne etc who seem to think that their own righteousness can be achieved without grace.

Evidently Satan continues to lead KM astray. KM still seems to have no reservations about misrepresenting the position of others even though he has been repeatedly corrected.

To once a twist my position and make it about me. It's not. It's about what Jesus teaches, period.[/b]

But ToOne , Jesus also granted eternal life to the unrighteous thief on the cross. Was this just an oversight on his part?

In any case , the whole point of the thread is to examine whether we can follow his commandments outside of the grace of God. Do you think we can do this and become righteous on our own?

Originally posted by knightmeister
But ToOne , Jesus also granted eternal life to the unrighteous thief on the cross. Was this just an oversight on his part?

In any case , the whole point of the thread is to examine whether we can follow his commandments outside of the grace of God. Do you think we can do this and become righteous on our own?

The whole point of my post was to once again correct another of your many misrepresentations.

Your continued dishonesty is appalling.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Since you cannot say that you deserve to exist then your life itself is a gift from God to you.

My existence is dependent on a whole host of things. So whether I should be grateful for them all is debatable. Should I be grateful to God, to my parents, to the circumstances of my birth, to whatever brought my parents together, to my grandparents, to my great grandparents, to whoever stopped world wars I and II, etc etc.
I am not convinced from what I have read in the Bible that God created man for mans benefit. It seems more like it was for Gods benefit.
Although a slave may be grateful to his master for his food, a living person has certain rights that should not require gratefulness to anyone.

I also find it rather hard to believe that you actually believe all the stuff you have said about God and Satan doing half the work in every decision I make. I suspect you are just making it up to try and get some more basic point across - probably to avoid admitting that ThinkOfOne is right.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The whole point of my post was to once again correct another of your many misrepresentations.

Your continued dishonesty is appalling.

I'm done with arguing and the rest of it. I'm tired of it. I'm just interested in the truth.

I'm also not interested in a debate about my so called dishonesty , I'm just interested in whether you have anything to say about the undeserved eternal life that Jesus granted to the unrighteous thief.

Have you anything to say about it at all? Was Jesus just forgetting himself?

As I have said before , it's very hard to misrepresent you because you never seem to allow yourself to be pinned down on anything. How can I misrepresent you if you are not clear? The only thing that seems consistent about your posts is your dislike of the concept of salvation by grace. You have never said anything postive about it as far as I can see , and yet logically you must realise that any righteousness we achieve in this life cannot be achieved without God's help, would you not agree?

I, on the other hand, say that God does not help all, that not all have a choice

Is that your choice or somebody else's?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Technically the word unmerited favour cannot be said to mean ONLY " favour placed towards someone who deserves not favour but punishment" it can also refer to NEUTRAL circumstances when someone is show favour when they actually don't merit it. For an act to be unmerited all that is required is an ABSENCE of merit. It does not require the OPPOSITE of m ...[text shortened]... for no other reason. He will not have earned it , you will just love him.

That all seems fair enough.

My point, once again, is that you are not employing the notion of 'divine grace' in the same sense as in the age-old debate. If your intention here is to introduce a broader sense of divine grace, then fine. But if your intention here is to declare victory for the "salvation by grace" side in the age-old debate, then you're deluded.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But what could it mean for you (or God for that matter) to bestow something upon a nonexistent?
----------------Lemon--------------------


😀 I've already done it! I became a Father! Life was my gift to him. (Although as it turned out he was just as much a gift to me)

Ny son was a non-existent once!

Ny son was a non-existent once!

Incoherent nonsense. It is contradictory to say that some thing existed once as a nonexistent.

Of course, there were times before which your son existed. And you and your wife brought him into existence. Even if this was intentional on the part of you and your wife, how does this show bestowment on a nonexistent?

Anyway, don't answer that. I think I know what you mean, even though, like usual, I think you are being sloppy.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm done with arguing and the rest of it. I'm tired of it. I'm just interested in the truth.

I'm also not interested in a debate about my so called dishonesty , I'm just interested in whether you have anything to say about the undeserved eternal life that Jesus granted to the unrighteous thief.

Have you anything to say about it at all? Was Jes ...[text shortened]... sness we achieve in this life cannot be achieved without God's help, would you not agree?

I'm done with arguing and the rest of it. I'm tired of it. I'm just interested in the truth....As I have said before , it's very hard to misrepresent you because you never seem to allow yourself to be pinned down on anything. How can I misrepresent you if you are not clear?

Evidently you're not "tired of" making insinuations as to what I think when you don't know my position. You could have easily made your point to TW without including me by name or anyone else for that matter. If you don't know my position, then why try to "represent" me at all? It's dishonest for you to continue to do so. An honest person would have left me out altogether.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You have never said anything postive about it as far as I can see , and yet logically you must realise that any righteousness we achieve in this life cannot be achieved without God's help, would you not agree?

Even if you are right about that, it does not logically follow that Gods grace is all that is required. So where are you going with this? It wouldn't contradict what my understanding of ThinkOfOnes interpretation of Jesus' message is. It sounds more like a false escape clause. ie you are saying "I can't do anything without God getting the credit, so I don't need to do anything". Alternatively you could be saying "I am never credit worthy, hence I must throw myself at Gods mercy". Both of those do not actually follow from your basic argument.

Would you concede that when we act righteously then we deserve some credit? Would you also concede that your argument so far in no way rules out the possibility that Jesus said we should become righteous?

Finally, how do you believe that God does choose who to give 'grace' to and who not to?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Even if you are right about that, it does not logically follow that Gods grace is all that is required. So where are you going with this? It wouldn't contradict what my understanding of ThinkOfOnes interpretation of Jesus' message is. It sounds more like a false escape clause. ie you are saying "I can't do anything without God getting the credit, so I don inally, how do you believe that God does choose who to give 'grace' to and who not to?

Would you concede that when we act righteously then we deserve some credit? Would you also concede that your argument so far in no way rules out the possibility that Jesus said we should become righteous?
-----------whitey--------------------------------

I have already conceded this. Haven't you been listening? I have not made an argument against righteousness either. I have simply pointed out that God's grace is deeply and heavily involved NO MATTER WHAT position we take.

The whole faith/grace V works/righteousness debate is a fallacy because works/righteousness cannot exist independent of God's grace. Those who think they can become righteous without a heavy dose of God's help are deluded.

This does not mean that we cannot get credit for becoming righteous , it simpy means that we take credit in a different and more humble way. Instead of going to God presumptiously and arrogantly thinking that God can see how we deserve heaven so much more than the next man due to "our" righteousness - we go to God claiming credit for that which God has put in us and have faith that God will recognise the part that we have played.

I'm sure in your own life you have come across men righteous men who are arrogant and presumptious about it - and also righteous men who are more humble about it.

So one form of righteousness leads to hubris and arrogant self righteousness , the other righteousness leads to humility and the realisation that we can only achieve what God helps us to achieve.

This what has lead the likes of ToOne to become judgemental in their views of others. You can pick it up in their rhetoric if you look closely enough. Thye don't like the idea of grace because it seems to make a mockery of righteousness. They want "credit" but they have forgotten that whatever credit they claim they are still always in debt to God's grace.

Starting to figure it out yet matey?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I'm done with arguing and the rest of it. I'm tired of it. I'm just interested in the truth....As I have said before , it's very hard to misrepresent you because you never seem to allow yourself to be pinned down on anything. How can I misrepresent you if you are not clear?

Evidently you're not "tired of" making insinuations as to what I think ...[text shortened]... st for you to continue to do so. An honest person would have left me out altogether.[/b]

I'm not going to let you take me into a cul-de-sac on this.

I can make some educated guesses about what your views are on certain things. I guess that you really don't like the idea of that unrighteous thief on the cross gaining salvation via his faith.

But as I said I'm not interested in arguing about insinuations or so called dishonesty - that's in the past now. I've said some things I regret as I'm sure you have. So let's not bicker about it now - how about returning to the truth. The truth is bigger than both of us.

Are you interested in discussing the role that God's grace plays in creating righteousness within us? If you are I'm game.

Do you believe (as I do) that we cannot become righteous unless God helps us to do so?

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Ny son was a non-existent once!

Incoherent nonsense. It is contradictory to say that some thing existed once as a nonexistent.

Of course, there were times before which your son existed. And you and your wife brought him into existence. Even if this was intentional on the part of you and your wife, how does this show bestowment on a nonexis ...[text shortened]... wer that. I think I know what you mean, even though, like usual, I think you are being sloppy.[/b]

Anyway, don't answer that. I think I know what you mean, even though, like usual, I think you are being sloppy.
------lemon--------------

And that's the point . The Bible is a very "sloppy" document. Theology is not laid out in a scientific way. It s full of metaphor and poetic language.

The problem is that if God exists and Christainity is true then it's obvious that our existence is willed by God. Therefore , him creating us is obviously a gift from him to us. You can argue semantics or pedantically pick apart comcepts all you like - life is still the gift of all gifts.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Would you concede that when we act righteously then we deserve some credit? Would you also concede that your argument so far in no way rules out the possibility that Jesus said we should become righteous?
-----------whitey--------------------------------

I have already conceded this. Haven't you been listening? I have not made an argument against r y are still always in debt to God's grace.

Starting to figure it out yet matey?

Talk about being "arrogant and presumptuous."

You have to be about the most arrogant and presumptuous people I've ever come across.

You keep presuming to know that I believe and persist in posting it as if it were fact.

I keep asking you to stop posting about me, yet you arrogantly persist in doing so.

You arrogantly hold on to nonsensical ideas even though it's clear that your powers of reason are exceedingly poor. No matter how much people point this out to you and prove it to you, you refuse to believe it.

Here's an example:
KM "Jesus explicitly says that the thief on the cross is saved by virtue of his faith in him. It's implied in his discussion with the thief."

You assert that Jesus "explicitly" states something by virtue of "implying" it. Can you not see how ridiculous this is?

You even presume to know why Jesus tells the thief, "today you shall be with Me in Paradise", when Jesus gives no explanation. Yet you point to it as some sort of "proof" of what you believe. This is irrational.

You just make up whatever you feel you need to try to prove a point.

How can anyone be so clueless about himself?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Anyway, don't answer that. I think I know what you mean, even though, like usual, I think you are being sloppy.
------lemon--------------

And that's the point . The Bible is a very "sloppy" document. Theology is not laid out in a scientific way. It s full of metaphor and poetic language.

The problem is that if God exists and Christainity is tr ...[text shortened]... ics or pedantically pick apart comcepts all you like - life is still the gift of all gifts.

The problem is that if God exists and Christainity is true then it's obvious that our existence is willed by God. Therefore , him creating us is obviously a gift from him to us.

No, that conclusion doesn't follow.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]The problem is that if God exists and Christainity is true then it's obvious that our existence is willed by God. Therefore , him creating us is obviously a gift from him to us.

No, that conclusion doesn't follow.[/b]

Where does it not follow?